Allyship - An Introduction

Allyship gets talked about like a personality trait, but that framing lets us hide in comfort. In this episode I take a different approach and map allyship as a spectrum, from harmful behaviour and dismissive “I don’t see colour” neutrality to real support that shows up in meetings, policies, relationships, and everyday moments. The big idea is simple: allyship is action-oriented, and the people we claim to support get to decide whether our actions actually help.

I also slow down on the empathy piece, because good intentions can still miss the mark. Sympathy can keep a polite distance, while empathy requires an emotional connection and a willingness to learn. We talk about why “I know how you feel” can be disrespectful, what to say instead, and how to listen without jumping straight into problem-solving. If you want practical tools for supporting marginalized groups, this is a repeatable playbook: notice, name what you observe, invite conversation, ask what’s needed, and follow up.

From there we unpack privilege, blind spots, unconscious bias, intersectionality, and the bystander effect, plus the difference between being an ally, an advocate, and an accomplice who shares risk to challenge unjust systems. We ground it with real historical examples of allyship in action, and we keep coming back to the same test: consistency over performance.

Referenced in this episode:

Kintsugi Heroes Podcast 

Related Books and Resources

• White Fragility – Robin DiAngelo (2018)
• So You Want to Talk About Race – Ijeoma Oluo (2018)
• Emergent Strategy – Adrienne Maree Brown (2017)

Transcript

Welcome And Land Acknowledgement

JD 0:09

Hello, and welcome to the JD Journal Podcast, where every couple of weeks my guests and I share some of our life journey, our successes and our failures, and the valuable lessons and resources that we've gathered along the way. This podcast is being recorded in Tasmania, a look to it up the traditional land of the Halo people, and we've had our deep respective on the past, present, and in many. This land always was and always will be an aboriginal land. The content here on this podcast is intended to inform and in its name, and it should be applied with your own good. As always, if feedback is good and constructive, it's always a creative. The podcast is produced by me, so forgive the equation produced a little bit of time. Anyway, enough of the full melodies. Let's get on with this episode.

Why Allyship Needs A Spectrum

JD 1:08

Hi folks, and welcome back to the JD's Journal Podcast. It's so great to have you here for season three of this podcast. Um, this episode is the first of the series of uh podcasts that I'm gonna do on the topic of allyship. Um, I originally started off with a plan to do seven episodes. I'm actually gonna do eight episodes, I'll talk about that in a minute. Um, and the intention of this is really um to explore the different scenarios where allyship um is vitally important and to kind of drill into the specific aspects of what allyship is for those scenarios. So um before I start digging into those specific scenarios, what I want to do in this episode is to go much deeper on the topic topic of allyship as a general topic. Um Frankly, it hasn't always been that clear to me what allyship represents. And uh and I'm sure there's a lot of opinions out there as well. Um, folks are listening to this podcast may have their own thoughts, and I'd certainly welcome any perspectives that you have, um, any critique you have, and certainly any corrections you may have on what I share today or over the over the series itself. But I wanted to think about you know, how's the best way that I can explain um allyship from my perspective? And and where I landed is on the notion of a spectrum. Um, and I'll just bang my microphone, I'll try not to do that again. Um, of a spectrum. And if I think, if I start with with uh the breadth of that spectrum, way, way over on one end of that spectrum, um, is um is a uh a position that's actually quite harmful and malicious when it comes to certain communities. Um the dark side, I'm not gonna focus a lot on the dark side that's um of that in this episode. I'll touch on it certainly um in other uh specific scenarios. I'll talk about that. But for now, like we can think about that as being, you know, manifested as being judgmental or insulting or diversive, um, or evenly, even physically violent, unfortunately, uh to certain parts of the community. And um, this is so far away from allyship, it really doesn't add a lot of value to this specifically this specific conversation today. Um so I'm not suggesting for a minute that we should ignore it. As I said, I I think we will talk about aspects of that kind of dark side of the spectrum as we look at the specific scenarios. But for now, I'm gonna assume if you're watching or listening to this podcast, that that's not the mental model that you have. Um and frankly, if it is the mental model that you have, then I'd suggest you move on. This is not the place for you. Um, go and listen to somebody else's podcast or something. Um, at the midpoint of this spectrum, I guess we could think about this as being kind of neutral or ambivalent. Um, people who say that they don't have an opinion about other people, they don't see color, um, or they don't care about your gender or sexuality as long as it doesn't affect them, and they're okay with other religions as long as they keep to themselves. And, you know, this is probably a comfortable position for some to take, if it's real, um, but it's certainly not helpful uh in any stretch imagination. And I really question whether that's really how people feel who project that way. Um, adjacent to that is people who say that they are tolerant, you know, they they are quite conscious of the differences of others. Um, they they probably see themselves as being um wrong or lesser people than themselves, um, but they tell themselves that they're good people because they accommodate them, they they don't harm them. Um, they may even tell you that they're allies because they've got friends who may be Muslim or Indian or gay or whatever it happens to be. But the truth is that just engaging and tolerating with people who are different from yourself, it is not being an ally, not in any stretch of the imagination. And frankly, again, it's not helpful. Now, before I go much further, I want to touch on another important distinction

Sympathy Versus Empathy In Real Life

JD 5:09

here. And I'm probably going to go down a bit of a rat hole here for a moment. I promise I will bring us back. Um, but I want to talk about the distinction between sympathy and empathy. Um, and uh and the way that I think about the distinction of those two is this um sympathy is feeling for somebody, it's recognizing their hardship um and feeling concern or pity, but it's not really synergizing with what they're feeling, it's basically sitting on the sidelines and saying how sorry you feel about them or feeling or telling them how sorry you feel for them. Um, empathy, on the other hand, is actually feeling with somebody. So not feeling for somebody, but feeling with somebody. And this is about um working to understand and share the feelings that they've got from their perspective. So maybe summarize this, you think about sympathy as compassionate distance, whereas empathy is an emotional connection. Now, I want to make another point on this before I go any further, and that is that perhaps the dumbest thing that I know that I've been guilty of saying in the past is that I know how you feel. And that's a bullshit statement, and I'll be very clear about that. Um, I can't know how anybody else feels. Everybody is on their own unique journey, has their own unique life experiences and their beliefs and their values. Um, I just it's pretentious of me to say that I know how you feel. I certainly can't feel um how a woman feels when they're walking past a construction site and they're wolf whistled. I promise you, in my life, I've never been wolf-whistled, and I don't think it's going to happen any day soon. Um, and I'm certainly not a woman, so it's ridiculous for me to say that I could know how a woman feels in that situation. Um, equally, I equally, I can't pretend how it feels to be a gay man who's hiding their identity for fear of repercussions or or implications with work or family or what it happens to be. I can't begin to imagine the feelings of a Muslim woman who is trying to honor their beliefs and their faith while facing the fear of harassment or criticism because of my appearance. Um, I know how you feel is frankly disrespectful. Um, and it also minimizes my opportunity and my impetus to be vulnerable and to learn. And so, you know, what's the alternative? What is the right approach to be empathetic in that situation? Um, and and this is what I would recommend. Um it's to start with, you know, observing um and recognizing that somebody is is perhaps not okay or is not feeling as comfortable as they need to feel, um, and and then to think about, well, how can I act on that? And um the temptation might be to say, are you okay? The problem with the are you okay question is that most people are are trained throughout their lives to always respond to are you okay? I'm fine, I'm fine. They're good old words, um, or you know, that yeah, it's all right, it's just my stuff and it's all good. It doesn't really help the situation. A far more practical approach if you're observing somebody who's behaving differently or behaving as though they may not be as comfortable is really just to acknowledge that, to say, hey, you look, you you've you seem uncomfortable. Do you want to talk about it? Or if it's somebody that you know, you might say, Hey, you seem a bit flat. I've been noticing you're not yourself lately. I'm here if you want to chat, I'm always around if you want to have a conversation. And that sends a very clear message that says to them, um, I'm observing, I'm I'm I'm aware of you, I see you. Um, and that may open the the door to a conversation. You know, sometimes that's all you need to do is to make people feel like they're they're seen. And then they'll start to think about you know having a conversation with you. If they do decide to have a conversation with you, your role is to listen to understand. Now, again, we love solving problems. It's a human thing and it's definitely a guy thing that we go directly into problem-solving mode, and we want to make life better for people straight away, but that's not your role here. Your role here is really to be present, to be, to be um uh aware and listening for the purposes of gaining understanding. You know, so Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand, then to be understood. Um, and that's really your role here is to is to resist the urge to move into solutions mode and really stay focused on just listening and acknowledging and practicing your active listening skills if you like. So maybe paraphrasing back to them in terms of I'm hearing that you're you know feeling marginalized, I hear that you're feeling threatened, or I or I sense that you're feeling like you're you know not being treated like others are being treated. Um, and just to really gain that understanding and gain that trust. Um, first off, to so before you do anything, and then don't you know don't uh begin with your own solutions, ask them what they need. Um, don't assume that you know the answer. Again, as I said earlier, it's impossible for you to walk in the shoes of somebody who's lived a very different life from you and has their own unique challenges. So instead of believing you know the solution, ask them what they need. Ask them what can what you can do or what can be done to improve the situation or help them feel better. And then finally, on this, and I'll get back to my my main thread, is follow up. You know, just being there in the moment and then moving on and never then never talking to them again isn't really allyship. An ally will will follow up later on in that day or the next day or whatever, just to check in and see if they're okay. And if they're okay, fantastic. If you've been able to assist or if they've been able to navigate it, that's wonderful. But equally, if they haven't, is to continue to be there uh to support them in the way that you can. So bringing it back to our spectrum.

Ally Versus Advocate Versus Accomplice

JD 11:15

Um uh, if we swing all the way to the other end of the spectrum, so on one side I've got that kind of malicious, harmful side of a person in relation to another community, swing to the other side, there's the role of accomplice. And and accomplices go beyond words to support um and and share the risk um of challenging unjust systems. They they go out there really to drive positive change on behalf of those communities. They might, you know, where an ally might speak up in a meeting, an accomplice puts their own comfort, their own reputation at risk by by driving change or looking for ways to make change. And adjacent to that on the spectrum is an advocate. And this person, um, again, is is more vocal, more public-facing than an ally typically, um, actively speaking up and championing a cause on behalf of others, um, often in formal or institutional scenarios. Uh, in fact, I like to think of the work that I've done over the last few years with the affinity groups like Glamour and so forth as being a role of advocation or as an advocate. This podcast and the podcast that I'll be launching shortly with the Kinsogie Heroes folks is intended to be uh an act of advocation or an act of an advocate supporting the LGBTQIA community is a perfect example. And so being an advocate is not only proactive, but it's also somewhat systematic and structured. Um, and and being more visible along that line does come with its own risks. It does come with can the you know the risk that you might be marginalized or you might be attacked or you might be put on the back foot because of circumstances. But that's what being an advocate is all about, is having that having that um courage to do that. For the purposes of this podcast, I'm gonna emphasize the role that you take up as an ally, somebody who actively uses their privilege to support and advocate for marginalized groups. Um this emphasizes that um allyship is action-oriented. Um, it's not identity-based, right? So, you know, I put a badge on here, I do have a badge on here. I put a badge on here, or I will wear my rainbow shirt or whatever happened I do. Um, that's not enough. That's you know, it's good. It's good that you're putting yourself out there and being visibly um representative for those communities. I don't take away from that, but that's not the role, that's not the role complete for an ally. An ally does far more than that. Um, and so you, you know, the I think I guess the other part of that is ultimately it's the community who's gonna decide whether you are actually an ally, and that's gonna be based on on the actions that you take, the words that you use, and how you put yourself out there to support those communities. Um, and I and this is a key point, right? So, this this separation between kind of genuine allyship and what is performative in nature. Um, and you know, I gotta say, again, being personal again for a minute, when I first joined Glamazon, um, and there are folks in that affinity group who know this, when I first joined the Amazon Affinity Group, uh, the Glamazon group, not being a member of the LGBTQIA community, being somebody who really was on that learning journey because of my own uh my own situation with my family, and also because I just had a passion to learn in that space. Um, I, you know, I did feel like maybe there I'm an imposter here. Maybe, you know, maybe this is somewhat performative, or at least it's seen as being performative. And and so I was constantly concerned about the role that I was playing and whether that role was legitimate or not. Um, and so it was a habit for me to check in with folks and make sure they give me feedback, reassure me that what I'm doing here is legitimately allyship or advocacy and it's doing the right thing. Um, the same is true when I was approached by Konsugi Heroes to establish the Pride in Stories podcast, which will be launching very soon. Um, the same questions went through my mind. Uh, you know, is this, am I the right guy? Is it somebody who should be from the LGBT community who's driving this and so forth? And so again, I went back and I talked to members of that community and I got their their input, their guidance, both in terms of was it okay? Was it legitimate that I would do that? And secondarily, what would I do? It how would I do it? How would I approach that? What would I do in terms of my actions that would continue to ensure that that is legitimate? And uh, and I've had some great guidance. I've had some folks in that community who've been awesome, in fact, in both giving me encouragement and supporting me, but also challenging me, you know, telling me specifically the things that I could do that would be the wrong thing uh in that role. And I will continue uh to check in with the community as I go forward with that podcast to make sure that I'm doing the right thing. Uh and you know, I'll remain conscious of that throughout. Now,

Lessons From History And Movements

JD 16:07

the notion of allyship is by no means new. I'm not sure how far back in history we can go to track it, but certainly, you know, if you've been following things like the civil rights movement in the 1950s and the 1960s, where white people participated quite actively in events like the Freedom Rides and the March on Washington, a perfect example of folks from outside of the black community who came out as allies and advocates to support uh the black community and a great driver of change. Um, the same is true for um the apartheid, the anti-apartheid movements across the globe, uh including here in Australia, the 1965 Freedom Ride, uh, where predominantly non-Indigenous university students, about 30 of them, uh got a bus and traveled around the state of New South Wales, picketing public facilities that had excluded Indigenous people uh from access to them, so swimming pools and libraries and so forth. Um, this action by these students was ultimately seen as a major force behind the 1967 referendum, where effectively the majority of the nation acted as allies to vote in favor of federal legislation that would remove that discrimination. It was quite a successful campaign from that perspective with the changes that were put in play. Still have a long way to go, but that was the beginning of a lot of changes that took away those historical anti-apartheid or sorry, apartheid style discriminations that were happening in Australia. Um, subsequent to the 1965 Freedom Ride, we saw the 1966 uh Wave Hill Walk-Off. This was a story which is artfully captured by Paul Kelly in his song Little From Little From Little Things. I'll say that again. Paul Kelly and his song From Little Things, I love it, where a stand was taken by indigenous people who were working at the Wave Cattle Station. And with uh with strong support uh from mostly white Australian trade unionists, um, it resulted in the then Prime Minister Goff Whitlam meeting with uh Vincent Lingari and the and the Guringi people and ultimately drove uh a landmark Aboriginal land rights uh act in Northern Territory, which formed a foundation for future legislation across the country, which basically fundamentally changed um the situation with regard to land ownership by indigenous people in the country. Um and that continues today, that that continues to drive the way that we we recognize the historical ownership, the land ownership that exists uh in play today. Uh, more recently, we've seen tremendous ally participation in efforts to support things like marriage equality across the globe, um support for women, including the 2021 March for Justice here in Australia again, where 150,000 people across 55 cities and towns marched in response to sexual assault in the workplace. Um, while the impact of that march specifically is kind of hard to measure, it certainly created a lot of visibility on the topic and created a lot of dialogue on the topic. Um we do believe it was a major factor in the change of government that followed, um, because the government, frankly, didn't respond very well. Um, we've also obviously seen um massive marches around the world in support of the Ukraine and Palestine, and all of those, I think, are tremendous representations of allyship in action. Um, I'll be visiting a bunch of those real-world scenarios as I, or those real world events as I go through the different scenarios over the coming weeks. There's some really um powerful stories there, both in terms of individuals who stood up as allies and also groups who've stood up and and driven fundamental change uh because of their stance on behalf of other communities, people that they were not uh particularly involved in, specifically as part of those communities. So taking

Privilege Blind Spots And Bias

JD 20:03

a pause for a minute and thinking about well, well, you know, what is the mental model? You know, this allyship we're talking about, what's the psychology of our allyship? And um and it really begins with understanding your privileges, you know, race, gender, class, your abilities, your sexuality, how do they stack up as as uh as your privileges? You know, for instance, as a man, again, I don't have to generally think about the risks around me when I walk across the car park late at night. Uh, but I know uh women who you know have to be incredibly vigilant when they're just going to their car at the supermarket or you know, walking out of a of a pub or whatever. They have to be consciously aware of you know who's around me, what's going on. Um, I know that some of those women prepare their car keys in their hands almost like a weapon to make sure they're ready. You know, and to think about that, you know, as a man, again, um you know, going back to the you know, I know how you feel, um, I don't know how you feel. I don't think about that. I'm not consciously concerned all the time about walking around late at night because someone's going to attack me. Um so the next part to think about the mental model is your blind spots, you know, is is again like that, like I was just talking about, is what are the things that are affecting others around you that you're completely ignorant of when you're talking to them or engaging with them or even making judgments about them? We do this, right? Um, what are what are the things that we don't understand about the privileges that we have that others don't have? And what assumptions do we make based on those blind spots? Another aspect of this is unconscious bias. And we all have unconscious biases, there's no question about it. Um these shape how we assess and we perceive others. It's it's another blind spot to believe we don't have these. Now we are designed um biologically and cognitively to make instant judgments about other people that we encounter. It's essentially a prior stop. Protection mechanism that we have to quickly assess whether other people are part of our tribe or not. You know, and uh as hard as we try, as hard as we might convince ourselves that I don't make judgments about people based on my my first five seconds of seeing them, the reality is it's you can't switch it off. It's built into us, it happens. Um but what we can do is be consciously aware of it and to challenge those immediate assumptions that we make about people based on their visible attributes. Um and as an ally, we're also compelled to challenge the negative assumptions that those around us are making as well. And again, going back to you know, that being ambivalent, you know, I'm I'm I'm I don't see color um bullshit argument. Um, not only is that about us, but that's about the folks who are around us. If you see somebody who who is making judgments about other people who they don't know um based on how they look, how they dress, um, where they are, and so forth, an ally calls that out, an ally challenges that. Um another aspect in the mental model is to think about intersectionality, right? So we tend to place people, including ourselves, into convenient singular buckets. We like to put ourselves into little boxes, give ourselves labels and so forth. But what about um, you know, you know, for instance, that person's gay or they're Asian or they're ADHD or whatever it happens to be? It's kind of convenient to do that. Um, and again, we are guilty of doing that to ourselves as well. But um, what of the Indigenous Australian transgender woman who's also in a wheelchair? You know, which particular bucket do you want to put that one in? And the reality is that, you know, their experience of the world and how many, you know, layers of privilege are at play here is is quite complex. And that's probably true for everybody around us, is that, you know, I always talk to people when I'm coaching people, is that you are not one thing, you are not just, you know, ADHD, or you are not just, you know, a leader, you're also a dad or a mum, you're also an artist, you're also all these different things. Um, the same is true in this scenario when we think about um allyship, is that what are the different aspects of the people that we're talking to? Um and and what are the layers there, both in terms of those things that marginalize them, but also the strengths they have available to them. Um going back to the the uh spectrum that I talked about, um there's this notion of the bystander effect, the notion of like leave them alone and and and do nothing. Um that's that's the nice thing to do, but there's also no practicality of that. And and again, it fails miserably um into the category of kind of good intentions, but it's not really adding value, and it certainly doesn't qualify you as an ally. Uh, so think about that. So uh I guess the last part when I think about the mental model for allyship is that it you know, it really requires embracing uh fragility and discomfort, vulnerability, you know, the ability to sit with discomfort is is part of the journey. Going back to the scenario I talked about earlier, um, that ability to not solve problems, to not have the answers, but just to sit with somebody. Um and it might be listening to them, it might be just sitting quietly with somebody. But the but this is about you know just being present for them. And then when the opportunity is there, uh the opportunity to learn, the opportunity to gain more personal perspective. The learning process is never ending. Um, and and I've learned this through all the interactions that I've had with the LGBTQIA community is that every time I think I've got it worked out, um I learned that I've not. The reality is that I don't fully understand it. And so you need to be ready and willing as a as a as an ally, as a true ally, to be on that learning journey forever. Um, everybody's journey is different, everybody's journey is unique, and and you just need to be ready to embrace the next scenario or the or the next um set of circumstances that a person is going through. Um, you've got to become comfortable having conversations where you feel like the least educated person or the dumbest guy in the room, as I like to say, um, in that conversation. Um, and and with that, you know, I'm a huge proponent for curiosity. Uh, whether you're supporting a person with disabilities or a transgender person or someone from another culture or religion, there's gonna be aspects of their lives and their beliefs that you frankly just don't and can't understand. Um, and you've got to be comfortable to lean into that, be curious, and be ready to make mistakes and to own them. You know, it's okay, you stumble. I stumble all the time. Um, as a parent of a transgender daughter, a wonderful transgender daughter, I've been, I call myself the clumsy dad all the time. I stumble and I will continue to stumble. I will try and hopefully stumble less often, but it's just a reality.

How To Practice Allyship Daily

JD 27:08

So if I summarize the the how of being an ally, uh I would say uh it starts with listening. Listen first and then speak. Um, and and center it on the voices of those with the lived experiences. In this era of of social media, in this era of everybody having you know the ability to communicate, we have so many armchair experts who'd like to tell you the truth of what it is to be a person with disabilities, even though they don't, or the truth of what it is to be a woman, even though they're not. Um so, you know, don't get trapped into their bullshit arguments. Listen to the people with the real-world lived experiences and learn from them. Um, also do your own learning. You know, don't assume for a minute that all the learning you're going to do is because you're going to talk to somebody who's in that community. We have we have so much access to good information that's available to us today, uh, just using Google search or whatever search engine you want to use, uh, with the advent of AI-based search, the ability to find information and quickly validate information is only improved. Um, and you really you really can give yourself a learning experience that's quite remarkable today just by using good search engines and AI to continue to build your experience and then use the knowledge that you gain for the conversations you're having in a continue learning process. So the combination of listening to people with lived experience and doing your own research is where you're going to learn uh the level of knowledge that you need to have. Um, as I said before, acknowledge your own mistakes and take ownership for them. When you get it wrong, just be willing to say, I'm sorry I got it wrong. Um, tell me how to get it right. Like, don't be afraid to be vulnerable and say, what is it, what is a better way for me to act, or what's a better way for me to speak that's going to be more supportive for you and your community. And and again, you will stumble again, I'm sure. We all do, but just be willing to be wrong and to to live with that um and go with it. Um, practice consistency over performance. Practice, you know, really always uh practicing getting better, practicing the the right behaviors to support the people around you. Um, you know, uh allyship is is a practice, it's not a badge, it's not a shirt, it's it's how you act and how you continually find ways to act better. Um, use your privilege where you have privilege to support others. If you if you have knowledge or you have connections or you have resources that you can use, use those resources to support those around you. Make your your privilege your strength. And then follow finally, you know, follow the lead of the communities that you're supporting. You know, think about those collective groups from folks that of women or of men or of LGBT people or of people with disabilities or neurodivergent people, those communities that have come together, those affinity groups, those working groups and so forth, they are collective wisdom and knowledge. Follow their lead and embrace those organizations and use them um to guide you, but also use your privileges to support them. So

What’s Next And Resources

JD 30:28

the next episode of this podcast series, I'm going to focus on um on women as a topic. And my goal is to really address the breadth of experiences all the way from kind of microaggression right through to femicide. So it's a broad, it's a broad topic. Um, I think it's particularly pertinent right now as we've you know seen the the documentaries lately on the manosphere and and we continue to see, frankly, horrific statistics on uh on violence uh and and on harassment and marginalization of women. So I'm gonna focus on that one, the next one. Um after that, you know, I I did not intend to have an episode on men, uh, which by the way is indicative of the challenge that we face in terms of men and and men's well-being and health. Um but as I did research for this podcast series and um and it came up as a recurring theme, the the topic around allyship for men is is a very real and relevant topic. Um statistically, we know that men are far more likely to commit successfully commit suicide. We know that there's um significant mental health issues and and uh and comfort issues that are affecting our male populations. Um, as I've started doing a little bit of work with Sid Vinny's down here as well, um I've observed a lot, a large proportion of the people that are coming in that need support are men. And I think we we habitually have this mindset that you know men are men are strong, they don't need help and so forth. Um, and for that reason, men are less likely to put their hand up when they do need help. And so I'm crafting an episode specifically focused on the allyship for men. Um, in the meantime, uh I uh I encourage you to take a look at the Kinsugi Heroes podcast. I'll share a link for that. Um, as I've mentioned a couple of times, they'll I'll be launching uh a new series under that banner called Pride in Stories that will launch in August. Um, the first few episodes have already been recorded, and I've got some great guests uh on the pipeline as well. Incredibly excited by the opportunity I've been given to launch that podcast. So, but Kinsugi's got literally hundreds of episodes of great podcasts, and I'll share the link. I'd like you to check a look at that. Um, I've also gathered a reading list that relates to this topic I've talked about today, and I'll include that in the notes as well. Um, and then the the next episode on Allyship Women will drop in the next couple of weeks. And uh in the meantime, uh I really thank you for tuning in and listening to this podcast um and your continued support for JD's journal. And I hope wherever you are, whatever you're doing, you're living your best life and you're being good to each other. Until next time.