Sara Elizabeth Joyce: Making Movie Magic, Art and Storytelling

A movie producer and director who’s built 15 features. An ethical hacker who loves RF puzzles. A poet and resin artist whose tables glow in the dark. Meet Sara Elizabeth Joyce, whose life makes a single argument: when in doubt, make art and keep moving forward.

We start with purpose—why Sara creates across film, poetry, and visual art—and how coming out in 2014 turned down the noise and turned up the signal. She takes us through learning every crew job before producing, the high-wire work of development, and a new true-story prison escape project brewing with Screen NSW. Then we zoom out to storytelling as a cultural engine: a Tokyo distribution triumph that imploded in the GFC, paying back debts the hard way, and the quiet power of Indigenous perspectives that shape how she names places, chooses stories, and shows respect on Country.

The tech turn is pure cyberpunk. Sara contrasts the joy of hacking’s deep puzzles with the burnout churn of corporate cybersecurity, then opens her RF lab: software-defined radio, careful air-gap discipline, and that infamous pub Rickroll—done with consent and a wink. We talk media narratives, Gaza and Ukraine, and practical activism you can do today. We also rewrite toughness: procrastination can be intuition; sensitivity can be a superpower. Her mantras—keep moving forward; an honorable life before death—anchor candid talk about asthma-triggering vapes, growing up with abuse, and finding steadiness in small, right actions.

If you’re curious about AI, Sara’s stance is clear: use it as a tool to learn and extend, not to replace artists. And if you need a material metaphor for all of this, you’ll find it in her resin art—technique born on an alien set, refined through teaching, now living on cocktail tables at PS40 and in homes around the country. The joy is in making art and letting go.

https://saraelizabethjoyce.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/saradarkmedia/

Machete Girl - https://machetegirlmagazine.com/ 

Dark & Dangerous Poetry: https://saraelizabethjoyce.com/poetry-short-stories/ 

The Stainless Steel Rat:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Sarra Joyce
• 3:36 Purpose: Make Art in All Forms
• 6:05 Becoming an Artist and Coming Out
• 10:47 Early Film Obsession and Identity
• 15:10 Learning Every Crew Job
• 19:10 Producing Features and New Projects
• 23:30 Storytelling, Deals, and Debt
• 28:20 Indigenous Storytelling’s Influence
• 34:05 Land, Fire, and Respect
• 38:20 Cyberpunk Roots: Machete Girl
• 44:20 Hacking vs Cybersecurity
• 49:10 RF Hacking and SDR Experiments
• 54:50 Politics, Media, and Activism
• 1:03:30 Sensitivity, Gen X, and Resilience
• 1:09:20 Mentors, Mistakes, and Self-Reliance
• 1:14:40 March Forward: Personal Mantras
• 1:18:40 Kryptonite: Vapes and Public Health
• 1:22:10 The One Book: Stainless Steel Rat
• 1:26:10 Quotes, Philosophy, and Watts
• 1:30:00 AI as Tool, Not Substitute
• 1:35:00 Resin Art, Letting Go, and Legacy
• 1:39:30 Closing Gratitude and Links

Transcript

JD: 0:03

Hi listeners and welcome back to the JD Journal Podcast. As always, it's fantastic to have you here. I appreciate you joining. , we have a really interesting guest for the uh episode today. I'm so glad that she agreed to be on the Sara Elizabeth Joyce uh is a film producer based here in the beautiful Blue Mountains outside of Sydney. She established her company, Dark Media, back in 2010. Uh, she's a graduate from the National Institute of Dramatic Arts or NIDA, as a commonly known here in 1995. I think she just started her studies at the Actors Centre in 1996. She has a background in set and prop design, which is where I did in my heart as well. , and construction has worked in some pretty amazing productions, including Alien Covenant, Pacific Rim 2, and others. I'm sure we'll talk about those. , Sara is an emerging member of the Australian Production Designer Guild and a financial member of the Media Entertainment Arts Alliance. She's also a member of the Australian Writers Guild uh and the Screen Uh Producers Association and the Academy of the Australian Academy of Cinema Cinema and Television Arts Awards. So um is actively involved across the associations of the entitlement industry there. her involvement in the film industry in general includes serving as a judge and coordinator of several film festivals, including the Transgender International Film Festival, the Fantastic Planet International Film Festival, Antarctica Horror International Film Festival, George Fest, Action Fest, Math Fest. , and she was also a guest panelist for the Sci-Fi Film Festival, which I know is another thing that she absolutely loves. , in addition to her work in that, uh, Sara has been actively involved in the political arena from uh 2011 to 2020. She conducted hundreds of interviews in digital media focused on political issues, and in 2019 she ran to the Grand Federal Senate, um, demonstrating her strong commitment to public service and advocacy. And curiously how to tell this, um, I was thinking about how to meet Sara, how did this all come about? And curiously, I guess, it came about because I did a somewhat rhetorical post on Facebook at one point that said, I think we should have a rainbow crossing in uh in Springwood, and I didn't think anybody would react to that. And Sara reacted almost immediately, and then I felt like I blinked, and we had a Facebook group, we had a steering committee, and we were actively trying to come up with a with a strategy that we can convince them to do that. We didn't win in the end, and I have to say, I was up in uh uh in Darlinghurst the other day up there at at uh uh the rainbow crossing there, and I still think we should try for it, Sara. I don't want to give up, but anyway, I'm rambling. uh and I've rambled through my introduction. So, Sara, how did I go with your introduction?

Sara: 2:49

, just one note. It's Sara, not Sara. So um there's no H at the end of my name, and I I take that very seriously most of the time because I take myself way too seriously. yeah, that was a great intro. I was actually it's it's amazing when you hear about the stuff that you've done. , and even in like uh kind of that form, it's just um it's amazing to think um that you've done all that stuff when you think, oh, I've done nothing with my life.

JD: 3:18

I am I'm so glad you corrected me on the pronunciation as well. I think that's evidence the fact that most of the conversations you and I have had have been over chat, not in person. But I I appreciate you correcting me on that, Sara. thank you for that. Look, we've uh we've covered what you do, and it's a lot. , and I haven't I actually haven't gone anywhere near the full spectrum of what you do, because I know that you're also an author and a and cartoonist, and you do all sorts of things. So we'll talk about those as well. But I really want to start with the question I always start with, and that is what is Sara's purpose? Why are you here? What's the legacy that you want to leave behind you?

Sara: 3:56

Uh well, my purpose is simply to make art um in whatever form it manifests itself, and uh, you know, be it poetry, resin art, films, or novel, you know, so it uh I I I get enormous gratification out of of doing that and putting that out into the world. And it's not really for anything more than just the fact that I need to do it. and I for for many years I kind of um you know held back um from from putting a lot of stuff out there. just simply because I was either too busy or um, you know, I I you know wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do with my life. But um, but after, you know, in the last 10 years, I'd say, you know, my purpose has definitely been to make up. So I've made great strides in order to try and get myself out there.

JD: 4:49

Well, and it and it plays in everything we just talked about, it's so consistently uh thematically across everything you do. I'm I'm curious, you know, when when did that become so clear to you? And was it a catalyst for it of some kind?

Sara: 5:03

I it it's sort of like when you know you're ready. it's there wasn't any sort of single catalyst um uh per se. I mean, there's been lots of little things that have happened along the way that have kind of um edged me towards being an artist. And um I think when you uh that moment where you choose to relax and not take yourself too seriously, um, and then you start thinking about, you know, uh what your purpose is, and um I mean, uh you can talk about legacy, but I I in terms of um in terms of you know manifesting itself, it it it sort of um was it's just something that happened. So um and then I just you know I was either listening or I wasn't listening. And so when I'm when I decided to listen to myself and um uh and knew that I had the power to listen, which I think was a very important lesson that I learned when I came out as trans back in 2014, um it it you know, it's uh uh I knew that I had that ability. So it over that period of time, it's just been sort of one little thing after the other that is kind of like, you know, is this right for you? A little voice inside your head, maybe.

JD: 6:21

So yeah. And and at that time, from an art perspective, you know, what what was the medium that was primary for you?

Sara: 6:29

Uh well at the time I was doing movies, um, doing um carpentry. I mean, I I'd just gotten out of the the political game with the Teachers Federation, um doing hundreds of interviews with parents, teachers, and pol politicians on the Gonsky campaign, which we lost, and Tony Abbott got in, and then um, you know, I started a um my own little women's revolution and um, you know, uh talked to Julie Gillard about it and um and um it was yeah, it was sort of like uh I was so upset that Tony Abbott, you know, um sort of appointed himself the Minister for Women before appointing somebody else. and um so there was about 10,000 people who joined me in in a in a um protest on that. So um and then um you know that formed a Facebook group and then a little bit of action and I sort of you know modeled my way through that for about six years.

JD: 7:34

Right. Okay. So why don't we do that? We'll take a step back and kind of give us a little bit of a a brief summary of your journey to this point. So um, you know, where where did the the journey in terms of filmmaking begin?

Sara: 7:50

well I was born in 77, um, the year that Star Wars came out. I saw Star Wars very early, apparently. I don't remember seeing it. I remember seeing Empi Strikes Back when it came out. but um I mean I was a huge Star Wars fan as a kid. and I I was just uh from about the age of four, I knew that I was trans. I didn't know the term trans, but I I knew that I was trans from about that age.

JD: 8:17

Right.

Sara: 8:17

So um uh how that plays in, I can sort of explain later on. But it um I was just in love with stories and films from a young age. I picked up a Super 8 camera very early on and started making ninja films with my brothers and cousins. And um I I then you know obviously I wanted to be a pilot and then an astronaut, and um I was in um army cadets and and I fell into acting and um poetry and you know uh performing and um uh you know and sort of like did everything I could to stop reminding myself that I was actually a girl and not a boy and terrified for people to find out. So acting sort of helped me in the lie, if you like.

JD: 8:58

Yep.

Sara: 8:59

Yeah. So uh and the better I became at acting, the better I came at hiding who I truly was.

JD: 9:05

Right. Yeah, and I don't think that's unique either. I think that story comes up.

Sara: 9:09

It felt unique at the time. It felt very unique at the time, especially growing up in a country town, um, you know, uh where you know kids played football or you know, they got bashed up. So it was it was very much like that. Yeah. So the facade is a pr is a couple of still a bashed up anyway, so yeah, no, I understood.

JD: 9:27

the Star Wars thing, I I I I kind of love and hate what you just said because I remember when Star Wars came out. I remember it very well. I remember seeing a uh uh uh a ripped-off copy of of somebody's film that they'd capture in the theatre so that we could see what it looked like. So it's yeah, in those days. And I had a little super eight camera, and we used to make fake movies and stuff in the backyard, so I used to love doing that stuff. we burnt plenty of plastic models just to make to make movies with our old Super 8. was an interesting period. Uh tell me like uh more around your movie experience. I'm so fascinated about what you've done. can you share a few of the experiences you had and and I guess you know what are your most fondly cherished or in terms of your of your involvement in movie production?

Sara: 10:14

well in about 96 I was um I was doing the journey at the Actors Center and I um I did this course with uh Ross McGregor um acting for the camera, and he put on return like uh he he asked us to um choose a film um talking about tension and everything like that, and he had a camera in the uh in the room and um I was uh to be honest more interested in the camera um and uh that he had and I brought along the Death Star trench uh run in Return of the Jedi. Right. And he said that was the best example of of tension because you know it was um you know it was all the way through and we kind of talked about it. And um and so I got to talk to Ross quite a bit. I don't know if you know who Ross is, but he's he uh famously the husband of Angela Punch MacGregor, who was an actress, um, who ended up being my teacher a couple of times as well. and um uh you know worked with with um Tony Hopkins and all those people. Tony, as as his close friends let me you know call him. so um yeah, so I I got really interested in the camera in around 96, and then I started to do whatever I could to start making films. So before I directed and produced my first film, I did everything but hair and makeup. So I I learned how to build props, I learned um how to do um uh coordination, um script supervising, uh line producing um catering, unit management um at afters, and you know, uh that just so many um different groups of filmmakers on the Norman beaches and in in Sydney uh and Western Sydney that I just latched onto and started making films and then I started doing like steady cam work and um uh you know completely ruining my back and um um and a bit of acting on the side. So yeah, I mean I just uh I was so in love with film I had to work on it constantly. So and then editing, you know, my first editing suite was a media 100. So um and then you know went on from there. What an amazing set of experiences.

JD: 12:34

That's incredible.

Sara: 12:35

Yeah, I mean, all up and down. I mean, I also did stunts. I remember doing um a short film where um we had to do stunts on um the sand dunes at Crenella. And um and at the time there were sticks all through the sand and everything, and I thought, yeah, I can do the stunt because the actor didn't want to do the stunt. So I put on the clothes and then jumped down the sand dunes and pretty much got stabbed the entire way down, so that was good fun. Wasn't a member of any guild then.

JD: 13:03

I I guess they call that character building, so yeah, it certainly was, yeah. So what about today? Uh in terms of uh film production, what what are you involved in today? Everything, so many hands and so many little pies.

Sara: 13:16

, but I've um I've produced about 15, I think, feature films now. so I've been on the producing end of of 15 feature films. uh there's two that are coming out uh that I've done with Maria Tran, um, part of the trilogy. and um so I just got an update on that two days ago where I got to listen to the intro and outro music of the second film, and uh I was just blown away, absolutely blown away. I'm a huge fan of anime, and um it sounds like an anime intro song to me, like an outro song, which I I just love, and it kind of fits the theme of the movies as well. So I'm I'm so happy with that. and um at the moment I am writing a couple of scripts, I have a couple of option scripts, um and uh one of them I'm working on at the moment, which I've been talking to Screen New South Wales about, which is a bit of a top secret project, to be honest. , it's um what can I say about it? It it's a prison escape movie. it's something that really happened um and it is uh it's something that was completely swept under the rug and is very embarrassing for um uh a lot of people who are involved. and it's sort of a comedy of errors, and it's I I um I actually saw um I was I was off doing a lesbian horror film in in um Kuma and um I I went down to the corrections museum down there and I saw something down there that I just couldn't stop thinking about. So I've I've written a bit of a script and I've I've pulled in two producers, one who did Fat Pizza versus Alzos, and another one who is a former police investigator who has found the people who were there at the time. So we've yeah, so we're going pretty hardcore into that. , and uh we're putting in an application for development funding for that one. So uh, and if you've ever done a development application funding, it's extensive. And but the good thing is that Screen New South Wales really, really want to see us put in a good application for that. So we're working with them in order to do that.

JD: 15:32

That sounds very exciting. I can't wait to hear more about that when you can talk about that.

Sara: 15:37

reason I thought I'm sort of keeping it quiet is because there's sensitivities around um the discussions we need to have with the people with the guards there. Yeah. and there's um there's clearances as well. So um uh and we don't want to sort of jump the gun, but it's definitely it's definitely an exciting project to be a part of.

JD: 15:59

Well, we'll be watching this space for more information. Yeah. You bet. Awesome. So a common theme um beyond art in its in its broad set of forms, a common theme that I I get from you is storytelling. and uh and it and it seems to be a very important thing for you. Where's that come from?

Sara: 16:21

so it's funny you say that. I I remember I was in Tokyo, I just made an incredible deal with one of the major distributors there um after only trying for a couple of years, and I couldn't wait to tell one of my American colleagues um that I made the deal. And he just didn't believe it. Uh because Spielberg and Lucas had tried to make a similar deal in that market and they couldn't crack it. And and then he called me a storyteller. And I was like, yes, I'm a storyteller. That's great. Yes, I'm so glad that you know. And I wasn't picking up on the fact that he was that it wasn't a compliment. Oh. And and I thought, um, you know, I thought he recognized my skill in storytelling, but no, it ended up um uh like he he just didn't realize that I'd made a deal. , and then you know, I I literally introduced him to the people that we made the deal with, and then he just was blown away. , but that ended up going bust anyway, because the Japanese passed a law restricting foreign investment, and then right after that was the global financial crisis, and I lost $430,000. So it was um it was a difficult time again, but um uh so so it I guess I do love telling stories. I love telling that story, um, because one of my favorite parts of that story is that I managed to negotiate down the debt and then pay it off over time. And it was only about uh two and a half, three years ago that I paid it all off. And um I remember The Legend of Bagatance that movie, and Matt Damon did uh Matt Damon's character in it where he um uh he saw the kid who was embarrassed about his father sweeping in the streets, and then he educated his uh the kid about, you know, when everybody else, you know, tucktailed and run and um you know filed for bankruptcy, your father stayed and paid out and everybody he owed. And essentially that that story was what led me to do the right thing as well. So um stories can be powerful like that, and and obviously they've affected me so much in my life that um that you know I've wanted to tell, you know, the crazy things that come into my head, you know, every now and again, and and just write them down. So there's so much there. and there's so much to tell. And I think when you're open to it, um it just flows.

JD: 18:47

And I asked a question because I'm I'm so excited by people who are gifted storytellers. I really am, and I and I and I and I think that way for a bunch of reasons. You're right, they're very powerful. I can influence, I can drive decisions, I can I can solve conflict, I can do all sorts of things with good storytelling. , but we also maintain our culture through storytelling. And um I know that you've been heavily influenced by indigenous storytelling because you and I have talked about it. I remember growing up with the dream time books, and I was fascinated by the dream time stories and indigenous. , I love them. I go to those books all the time. tell me, like, how has the indigenous storytelling influenced your approach?

Sara: 19:31

, in a lot of ways, I think um I you know, growing up in the country, um having the the sort of white privilege that I had, um, you know, I did have a a few Aboriginal kids around, and one taught me how to eat Widgety grubs as a kid, and um uh I fell in love with a girl in high school who was Aboriginal, where my parents and their parents tried to keep us separate. and I um I sort of I didn't understand the racism toward just Aboriginal people. It was certainly there. it was there in my own family, and I just never understood it. I never subscribed to it. even when I was in cadets, you know, the people would tell Aboriginal jokes and I'd be like, Are you guys serious? You know, like you realize that you know, they're people too, and they're here, right? And they've been here before us. And I was trying to explain through all the sort of cultural learnings that I learned through primary school, you know, performances and stuff like that, you know, about you know, anti-mining kind of protests that we did um as kids, um, and using indigenous stories to tell, you know, the reason why it's so bad. And um, I guess it uh, you know, I grew up with all those stories as a dream time, um, but more importantly, in my adulthood, I've learned from knowledge keepers and elders. , and I I embrace indigenous perspectives to inform my creativity and stories. like a good example is I'd rather use the traditional name of a place than a colonized name when I'm writing a story. and you know, I'll use that perspective to help promote trans issues as well. It sort of informs uh that and my and issues of homelessness, which are very both very important to me. So a good example is I was in Melbourne for uh Chinese film festival, um, and um somebody on the stage was talking about how their perspective was influenced by indigenous methods of um making movies. And I thought that was brilliant, and and it it that informing you know, um Chinese people to tell Chinese stories was informing me as a trans person to tell more trans stories. So I went back a bit to to I came back home and I wrote another script, you know. So yeah, I mean it all kind of flows. So uh and I just you know it's a discussion I have wherever I go, whenever I'm doing a movie in any location, I want to get to know who um the local peoples are. I want to get a sense of how much um it's embraced in that area. I want to understand um the massacres that happened, and you can usually tell whether uh or not it's been embraced by the amount of plaques in town or you know, um art galleries that sell Aboriginal, original Aboriginal artwork or um you know, and how much they know about it. So I go in and actively have those conversations, and then occasionally I will go to a location where I'm at, and if I've got the time, I'll go do an Indigenous experience and spend time with the people. The last one I did was Wa Wa Lik in Victoria, and that was a huge eye-opener. And it, you know, what had happened to them is absolutely tragic, but the stories they carried through so many centuries and so many thousands of years, um and little things like how they made their made their boats and uh from trees and and how you can tell which trees you took them they took them from, was just fascinating. And it was just um it just it it it elevates the level of this country whenever you embrace uh the traditional teachings. So and I can't speak enough about it, you know. It's just something that that that really informs my decision making when it comes to doing anything.

JD: 23:37

No, I I love that, Sara, and it's like it's it's kind of bittersweet. Uh, you know, and and again, for the listeners that that aren't Australian, uh the Australian indigenous uh population here um are the longest uh constantly living um society that's existed. 65,000 years, we think, maybe further, um, that they've lived in this country. but they haven't they haven't got books of written information. That's not how it works. It works through art and it works through storytelling, and they pass the stories on um generation after generation after generation, and it is quite remarkable to go back and read the dream time stories. and a lot of them are metaphorical in nature, a lot of them kind of paint a picture through a story that is is fantastic and interesting and so forth, but the diversity of stories that come out of our First Nations people are quite remarkable, and I feel like the the country's starting to wake up again in terms of valuing our Indigenous people and our First Nations people um and embracing them. And I'm with you, Sara, in the sense that my my hope is that we become somewhat more like um our New Zealand cousins who've who've done a pretty good job in terms of incorporating the Maori heritage and the language in everything they do. I'd love to start us seeing us more and more using indigenous names for things and incorporating those in just naturally into what we're doing.

Sara: 25:08

So yeah, it's I think However Kiwi says Kioto in the morning, you know. That simple thing is a sign of respect that we don't yet have in this country.

JD: 25:18

We do not.

Sara: 25:19

And and I mean, we do have so many different nations within our nation. So you know, I I guess the question would be, you know, which one do you say and is it relevant for which area, and you know, sort of thing. But you know, and that's a discussion to be had. But um it's you know that I agree, like the level of respect is so much better. It's not perfect. , there's a lot of issues at the moment, in particular in New Zealand, but um But yeah, we're not there yet. And and we we still don't have a a a national treaty with our indigenous peoples. The only country under the Commonwealth that doesn't, you know, and uh after all these years later, and yeah, I mean I mean We're a long way.

JD: 26:05

We're a long way in.

Sara: 26:06

We're still a long way. It's gonna be generations still before anything happens. But if you look at if you look at why history in Australia, you know, what 235 years or something, it's uh 235 or what it is. and out of 65,000 plus we're we're a tiny drop.

JD: 26:25

Yeah, we're we're scratch on the surface. and there's and there's so much richness, there's so much value that comes out of uh out of it.

Sara: 26:34

I don't realize either, like how many how how different each culture is and different technologies they used and different ways of being and storytelling. It's just fascinating because and and I wish that more you know sort of white Australians would would would listen, would just simply listen.

JD: 26:54

I think we're making some tiny steps. I but I I think there are some signs there in terms of steps. one of the things that is interesting, I I'm impressed with is that it's taken us a long time to do it, but we have major issues with bushfires or forest fires in this country. It's a it's a it's a it's a tremendous challenge for us to manage. And frankly, the colonials, the white people have made every stupid mistake that you can make when it comes to managing the land here in many ways. And at last we're beginning to use indigenous consultants to help us to navigate the the protections we can put in place in terms of backbone backburning and and control to reduce the risk. And I just think it's those to me, it's a sign if we're starting to do that, is a sign we're starting to to um understand that these people are the owners of the land, they understand the land, they understand how to manage the land um far better than we do.

Sara: 27:52

Well, there's people in country New South Wales and Victoria who own farms who who uh uh listen to indigenous ideas about backbanning as well. So it's not just um getting a call from the ADF. it's not just um sorry guys. so uh it's not just uh you know government in response to disasters um that's important, but it's um it's it it's it's really uh you know, I I really love it when country folk embrace um teachings as well. And I've seen a lot of that in the last few years and uh where I've been you know making films in the country. So I I just you know and and I absolutely fall in love with these people because they're doing the absolute right thing for the country and for themselves and for their communities. Yeah.

JD: 28:50

Yep. Well, let's let's stay optimistic that hopefully the trajectory will continue um and we'll all see us waking up to this opportunity. I want to take things in a very different direction, still in the context of storytelling. you you're also the creator of Machete Girl magazine. Uh Cyberpunk. That's why the ADIA for calling me. Is that right? So it's a cyberpunk magazine on the.

Sara: 29:16

I've been talking to them about something. So um, but um but yeah, I have a I have background in hacking and um uh cybersecurity and overworked for government and and stuff. What do you want to know? So first of all, tell us about Machete Girl. Oh, okay. Well, it was um it was a magazine. Well, it was an idea actually for a film I had originally, just about a a hacker girl and machete being metaphor for hacker.

JD: 29:43

Right.

Sara: 29:44

and uh my friend and I, Steph Dawson, we um sort of, you know, she was kind of like my inspiration for it, and we went to Tokyo and uh I took some photos of her and we sort of hung out and uh I I I'd I'd seen an online cyberpunk manager. magazine um called The DOS, which kind of you know was really exciting because at that time you didn't always have internet in the hotel, you know, you didn't have, you know, mobile phones with internet at the time. So you had your laptops and you're traveling in Tokyo or some other country and um and uh you know you can download a PDF magazine and read it. And I thought that was great. And um it inspired me so much I decided to make my own. And I said how hard can this be? So I spent about six months trying to figure it out and then um in 2010 I believe or 2009 2010 I released the first issue and um and to much praise and and and and as I was releasing them sort of quarterly I think at the time um it built up a momentum where it was just getting downloaded like three million times and it was fantastic. I wish that were the case now. I took a bit of a break from it and um I've only just uh re-uploaded a new issue yesterday since uh before the pandemic so um pretty excited about that um it's um uh I've also written an entire novel uh one of four novels um I'm halfway through the second um which I haven't released yet um but it's it's about the story that I originally conceived of um uh with a billionaire billionaires called Chloe Raynor who um lives in the the year 2140 and um is uh is uh you know invents a whole bunch of technology and um it sort of lives off the legacy of her parents who who invented technology as well and there's uh uh you know a bit of a war and things happen um but um but I made a little kind of web series about it as well um and uh did that back in like 2012 to th to 2014 uh and um so I've written the first of of four novels and um with my first book being a poetry book coming out um I I have to sort of schedule that uh as they come out. Right. But um back to the sort of story of Machete Girl yeah I mean it's um something that's you know futuristic cyberpunk hacking stuff that I've been interested in for a while. And it just into my you know hacking experience and culture and stuff like that.

JD: 32:30

Well and I I gotta say like cybersecurity is one of the hot topics right now no question about it. And uh well you know it's um it's it's certainly it's a career path a lot of people are choosing to to look at uh quite a bit. Why because I think that well that's a great question. I think it's because there's a perception that as we move further down the path to AI and so forth that there's going to be uh greater risk profiles around the data that's beneath all of this. It's not the path I would choose I promise you but it's certainly topical. And so um I I mean I know you kicked off as a hacker and I'm curious about hacking so much more fun than cybersecurity.

Sara: 33:14

Well it's a context effectively so yeah um and then you kind of joined the white side of the force or the good side of the force and you became uh which side is which side yeah right so like I mean I it sounded like you were saying that in the context that cybersecurity was the light side and I can tell you it is not it is absolutely not I mean there's dark facets of both let's be honest you know there's um but um but uh in cyber you're always on the losing team you're always on the losing team and it's um and and the corporate world um it's just that like it appears that most managers um that have that skill they they either don't understand hacking or they're just blatantly terrible managers right because they're so good at hacking um so um I to put it mildly I think people are doing it just for the pay honestly I think people are you know they they're getting the skill they're going to uni and then they realize uni doesn't really teach them anything about like what they're supposed to deal with and the programs you know and and and how so many companies are program centric in terms of um dealing with hacking stuff. Right. But you know uh if you if you're in a good team if you're in a good um uh yeah if you're in a good team you're you've got um you're content switching all the time um and I find that kind of annoying yep yeah um I find content I like uh I'd rather do a deep dive um uh into stuff rather than spend five minutes doing this and oh no this has been breached let's go deal with that and oh no this is happening let's go deal with that where's my report and you know like and when am I gonna you know do this test that we have to do in order to stay on top of our skill set you know I I just all of that stuff just pisses me off to be honest.

JD: 35:18

So from that I derive that that you get better a great deal more joy out of finding a way to get through a system than to protect a system.

Sara: 35:27

That's a little little bit of an achievement and I mean if you're an ethical hacker there's plenty of ways to do ethical hacking you know with permission to try and figure stuff out. You know it's puzzle it's it's you know crypto c cryptography and puzzle you know puzzles and it's you know once I guess once you get hit around a a certain technology or language or something then it's um it becomes easier and easier. And for me it wasn't easy to be honest. It was um when I first started I I you know I fell in love with the idea of hacking from from movies and um had no clue. You know I watched war games as a kid and I thought that was really cool but we didn't have any of that technology in Australia at the time. Uh not in general not until like you know the mid-90s and um I mean you know th you know there might have been mendacks in Victoria who had access to you know telephoning and freaking um if you know who I'm talking about, you know who I'm talking about. and um yeah I mean there were forums and you know exchange ideas and that sort of thing but um you know I did actually get caught port scanning companies in Japan uh in the nineties. Uh and maybe that's why the ADF are calling again. Back in the nineties about that. and you know my my my future father in law at the time was the strategic director of Optus Vision so I had high speed internet cable before anybody. Right. when he went to bring internet to Iran. So yeah I mean I had I had a lot of access early on for for stuff to do stuff and to have fun.

JD: 37:12

Yeah. That makes sense. Look I mean I've I've worked with a number of given my previous role I've worked with a number of people in the in the security space who um have incredible hacking skills um on on all different sorts of protocols and and systems. And then it's phenomenal to watch frankly uh to see somebody who can take over your keycard or somebody who can who can break through your your your your wifi uh protections or somebody who can crack into your database systems or whatever. It's phenomenal to see the art of what's going on with that.

Sara: 37:46

Of course for the person I don't and so I I see packets back and forth and and that's how you and if if somebody's logging at the time you you collect the information in the packet so yeah no it's it is interesting.

JD: 37:59

And certainly you know we saw uh in companies that I worked in the eradication of of um wireless non-bluetooth keyboards because they were so easy to crack for instance and and whatever. And so it's it's just an interesting space there's no question about it. And uh and I can see that the the the breaking in piece or the or the hacking piece is far more entertaining than the protections it's got to be somewhat lame.

Sara: 38:26

Let's take that to write a report about it afterwards you know you don't have to hand it to somebody else and then you don't have to explain it to a C level person who doesn't understand cybersecurity. So you're skipping a whole bunch of steps and having a lot more fun.

JD: 38:39

Right, right. And it doesn't mean that you don't think malicious in the end it just means that you've broken the code and you've been you've proven it to yourself that you've done it's that's down to personal preference.

Sara: 38:48

Look you know if if you want to be an evil hacker go do you um that's not me. You know I do everything with permission um and um you know when I find the time usually on a Saturday night with a bottle of sake and um you know nowhere else to go if I'm not doing RF hacking or something.

JD: 39:10

So well that's a great that's a great segue. So you know RF hacking I know is something you'd be interested in as well. I've only gotten as close I've got my flipper zero and I'll play with that a little bit um every man and his dog's got a flipper zero these days. But to like for the listeners, RF hacking what is it? And tell me what you've done in that space.

Sara: 39:29

Well what have I got here? I've got this little transmitter. Right which um if I were to use nefariously I could um take over uh any radio station within about 32 kilometers right um given my setup um it's completely illegal don't do it it you the fines are just ridiculous um you need a license uh and there is a process to get a license so so I'm not advocating for anybody to do it. I'm just interested in the technology. So um something that is it's it's more recent for me. I've only sort of gotten interested in the last year and a half um and I bought a little ATS 25 Max um uh decoder which uh had to upgrade the software in rubles. Right uh they charged me about seven times the amount in rubles because of the exchange rate and whatever for for the Russian software. I went through it line by line to see if there was any uh Python that was out of place and if it was going to hack into my computer, which it does have a connection it has Bluetooth and it has you know USB C connection to the computer. So um I I did all you know my checks and everything to make sure it was fairly isolated and I only run it on a Kali box anyway so uh Linux box. So um which is fairly isolated in you know my virtual private server. So um yeah it's uh I I just absolutely love the idea of merging the old technology with the new and it's it seems with software defined radio it's it's so much easier to do today.

JD: 41:10

Right.

Sara: 41:10

I don't think a lot of people do it because they're just not you know I think with our attention spans maybe a lot of kids who might have gotten into this stuff haven't yet. It's more of an older person's game it seems to be um but I'm I'm just fascinated by uh merging the technologies and you know having uh you know sending um Morse code over you know software defined radio and having a repeater station at some point you know hopefully which is what I plan to do. And um and yeah more recently I started to get certification in um uh radio uh just as a hobby. so um through uh what is it Tate Radio Academy in New Zealand they offer free certification. So wherever you can get free certification and it gives you a certificate to get it. Because it does mean something. And if you learn it along the way even better.

JD: 42:08

Yeah yeah sure and for the listeners RF hacking is such a wide spectra excuse the pun, but such a wide spectra of things that fit into the category of that I mentioned uh I made an offended comment about a flipper zero which is basically a little what used to be a games device. But the the the hack there that most people were having fun with was literally just sending a signal to to open up the the uh the charging uh cover on a Tesla or changing the the station in their local pub or or whatever but it's basically um being able to break into anything that's that's effectively a radio frequency and then either being able to capture data or manipulate systems via that mechanism.

Sara: 42:47

Well I've done it at the local pub. So I have an M5 stack um uh cardputer and I took that to my local pub up here and they had the races on and that sort of thing and um not only did I take over the television screens um and turn them off um but you know I was talking to the owner while I was doing it um I also um spann the network with with a with a Rick roll so um I set up a bunch of uh uh Wi-Fi's that had the lyrics from um never gonna give you up never gonna turn you down never gonna turn you so all of these Wi-Fi networks and people didn't connect to it and I was just I was I was laughing my head off. So um but I did it with the permission of the Anna. So but uh that was a cool little test I thought.

JD: 43:39

That's hilarious. You rickrolled them I think that's fantastic. That's really good. so taking um uh a very different direction here I I talked early in the in the introduction about the fact that you've been quite politically active and and and uh an advocate uh for the trans community an advocate for human rights in general um the world's in a pretty freaking interesting state right now a lot of negative attitudes around immigration women LGBT um and and our rights are being affected at the moment um we're dealing with some graphic wars around the world as well and I and I think all of us have been watching overnight what's happening with the flotilla to Gaza and and disappointed uh by the events so far of that um hope still holding on to some optimism um like what are what are your views on the state of the world right now and and and you know if you had a message for our listeners in terms of what they could be doing what would it be?

Sara: 44:44

Say no to AUKUS I guess I'll start by saying you know the 500 plus people who make up the global Summit Fortilla are heroes of mine. The doctors and nurses who have been and are still in Gaza are heroes of mine as are the soldiers that support the personnel in Ukraine you know Slavia Ukraini. I wish I had the ability to join them. I can't but um I have helped fund uh teams that have gotten food and um toys during Christmas and stuff like that in Ukraine as well as drones to the front lines to certain teams. there's specific groups of people set up to do that. I was planning to join the hacker side of things but I was just too busy at my job at the time which was with SBS and it was a conflict of interests so I couldn't take that on unfortunately. And um I think in a world like I don't really want to focus on America because I mean it's a it's a self-inflicted weren't really we've been talking about it for years and then I did it so I don't really I mean I f I feel bad for my fellow trans people over there and the shit that they have to put up with um but there's clearly a boundary between those who follow the rules blindly and those who question why certain rules exist in the first place. And I'm constantly surprised by how many people who sort of say oh you know the left or the right of politics are to blame you know when it they have more in common than they realize um like coercive control or abuse or you know um and and and how often wrong they are about each other. And it's not to say that I'm I'm against the left or right as a centrist or anything. I am definitely left side of politics. But when they present the idea of politics to people um it is a spectrum that it is so limited and it makes the greens look like they're extreme leftists and it's not the case. The truth is that the Labour Party is on the far right in politics in this country and I you know I had hope that you know with Alberty because I used to interview him for the Gonsky campaign and he was one of the few people who actually read the Gonsky um report and um out of all the politicians that I used to interview and work with I had hopes that he would be a good prime minister but I'm so upset by a lot of um the actions of the Labour Party in general. The Liberal Party are just not on my radar at all because they they're just too far extreme for me as are the nationals. But um but independent parties you know if you were to go to the polls tomorrow I'd suggest voting for every independent party that aligns with your goals and policies. And I don't care what side of politics it is on, just don't vote for the majors. But you know it's not a two party preferred system as as much as the ABC would love to tell you that it is I think the media has a lot to answer for in terms of um uh the way the news is presented because uh I mean channel seven nine and ten are just ridiculous in terms of corporate media I just hate them so much I can't stand them I still want to make deals with them if I'm gonna make a movie or television series with them but you know that aside um in terms of the news um I just can't uh I can't stand them ABC have have got a lot to answer for I feel a lot more these days as well um because they're always trying to come up with a narrative as our SBS now SBS have this policy of not get not getting involved in any one side of politics but it's it's just impossible sometimes right and it's um because you're presenting the news and it's going to be slanted one way or another but they're also trying to find a narrative and I've worked with the journalists there. I've I've done some editing there um in the news and I've seen the footage of that that had been coming out of Gaza and the horrific stuff that didn't make it to television um because it's just too much. And I'm sitting there with a person from Palestine who's another editor who is just the most kick ass brave person I know you know just letting it wash over and and just doing the job. And um I have so much praise for those people who are able to do that especially given you know it's so personal and so deeply disturbing what Israel has been doing to to Palestine. Now it it my background is I I feel like I should put this caveat in there you know apart from being mostly Irish um and having some Indian in my background um my great grandmother was Indian uh from Kashmir um I also have some German Jewish my grandfather uh my great grandfather came over from Germany before Hitler took to took power um and uh moved to Australia and his son fought against the Japanese in World War II as did my other grandfather you know who was part of the British Commonwealth occupational forces in Japan and I speak Japanese and I lived in Japan. So um and I've been to the peace memorial and I've seen the results of you know uh what it's like to have you know a conflict where people don't acknowledge um the what started it or or you know acknowledge the truth of history and um they often say history is written by the victims. I've got friends who are adamant supporters of Israel who um I I try to talk to about this. It has nothing to do with the 80 year history uh of conflict uh between the bet between the two people or the Nakbar or anything that has come before. It is about what is happening now. And if you can't see a genocide when it's broadcast to your face 24-7 on your mobile phone I don't know what to tell you.

JD: 50:42

I can't rationalise it either I I talked about it uh a couple of episodes ago on the podcast as well and it's it's just I I can't make rational sense of what's going on right now and and how and how complicit we are in the West in terms of what's happening right now, including Australia. It's uh we've we've we've uh basically forgotten what happened in in the Second World War. We've just dismissed it as though it it has no meaning and I just can't recognise it. On the press again I'm with you I I've struggled to find a new source uh that I feel comfortable with I think all of that needs uh is uh for the purposes of advertising and market share and I think it's it's it's um filtered but also I think it's distorted. I've actually landed on um Elder Zero on I'm basically getting most of my news on Elder Zero which I've got an offer I've got an offer for that um and that doesn't feel perfect either let's be clear but it's so far it's the most balanced news I've been able to track down. To be honest with you I get more news from the Daily Show and and last week tonight than the comedy sources than I get from the official news sources because again everything is so distorted everybody's trying to find a narrative and comedians their narrative is comedy.

Sara: 52:07

So they try to find the humor in everything that happens. So it ends up more often than not being the truth right so the truth is stranger than fiction sort of thing. So but with um you know with Al Jazeera I I I emailed the Guardian the other day just talking about flotilla just saying like why aren't you putting more information out about the flotilla all of a sudden today and last night information on the flotilla. So I don't want to take credit for that but I was very upset with it and I just kind of outlined uh you know an email like a crazy person um like just what my points were and why I think you should be covering it you know step by step. And then all of a sudden I saw it in my feed this morning. And then um I also you know I I just what was it? I was um I was listening I I listened to um what's the radio station called uh 94.50 or what is it? so uh one in Sydney the independent one um there was somebody on the on the radio who was just talking about how um something something something this music and yeah we don't get this because we're a colony. And I just uh I ended up having to email them too and uh I just I've gotten to the point where I just I can't let things slide anymore. And so I just emailed um I emailed the station and said yeah can you just let the girl know who said that that we're not actually a colony um and you know blah blah blah staunch Republican blah blah blah um you know I may be on the the left side of politics but I didn't say this but I you know I am a sharpshooter.

JD: 53:55

So well and it's interesting you you you mentioned republic because I I've got to say you know transparency. A year ago I would have said um I would I would love to see Australia become an independent republic. A republic under a um uh under the Commonwealth correct um and and I would uh you know I a year ago I would have said that quite comfortably I've got to say having watched what's going on right now particularly in the US um I actually like having the monarchy overseeing us because you know I go back to what happened with Whitlam and I don't agree with what happened with Whitlam but at least there's an independent capability to dismiss a government that's corrupt. And so I don't know it's I'm nervous about one one has nothing to do with the other.

Sara: 54:42

As much as we want to mirror the US in terms of our politics we don't we have a Westminster parliamentary system which is unique to our country it is nothing like what's happening in America we don't have rights which is probably something we should have um but um you know we still haven't got the constitution right so uh let's work on that a bit um I mean to have a head of state that's that's in a country that was a colonialist and and um often at oftentimes we're at odds with just makes no sense to me. I I don't I don't mind the idea of um to appease the uh the you know people who love the royals to say that let's become a republic under a Commonwealth that that is like a compromise I would be willing to make but in terms of um our country's politics is so vastly different to the UK and the US um that uh as much as you want to swear allegiance to a king or a queen it just it's got nothing to do with us.

JD: 55:45

And and and I'll be clear I don't but I want to make sure there's a safety net.

Sara: 55:49

So I guess well the safety net I guess would be um our our proximity to the rest of the world. So if you want to talk militarily yeah there's risks there because uh I I mean you know if if we don't have the US as an ally then that could cause problems but we do have a good relationship with China despite the fact that we're at odds with their politics as well um and and their humanitarian record. Looking at our own humanitarian record we haven't done so great with um Christmas and Manaus Island um and um it's the you know and and even acknowledging the frontier wars I mean there's some be there's been some great programs on SBS about it but still I find there's a lot of people just don't understand or know the history of this country. They know more about Bander Brothers than they do about you know our own military history. So um but yeah just in in terms of the the Republic I'm still a staunch Republican I I've always wanted to release like a um a clothing line that was the Australian Republican army. I had the idea back in the 90s but I can't so for shit. So maybe that's the next skill I'll take on.

JD: 57:11

I I I can't wait to see what you do there. That'd be fun.

Sara: 57:13

I'd love to see you have a new flag and a new entry I'd love to see a bunch of Gen Z's wearing you know like military gear with Australian Republican army written on it and taking it as their own. Yeah yeah yeah not to confuse it with the Irish Republican army or the Shane Fan or other different thing again.

JD: 57:29

Let's not do that.

Sara: 57:30

So what are you optimistic about in terms of the state of the world um what am I optimistic about um I well I guess what am I optimistic about uh my writing really happy uh every time I I finish an issue of a magazine or I finish a book or I finish a poem or I get an an immense sense of satisfaction out of either that um yeah um again it's just down to art and and connecting with the art and I I just set myself a series of tasks to do and then you know if I achieve half of them I'm I that brings me a certain level of happiness. I recently lost my cat and that has been a big sense of um that's been a big sense of uh loss for me because essentially as a as a pet owner and not a parent uh you know I've lost a daughter and it's um something I'm still going through quite hard. but um I'm immensely grateful for the people who've reached out um I've I've I've had flowers shop at my door anonymously I've had uh people do artworks of uh my cat and uh including John Howard the actor who who did one of her a little while back um and just gave me permission to put it in my my new book which I have here Dark and Dangerous Poetry that's exciting coming out soon. Yep um finishing that book has been uh a three year journey of of doing poetry which I didn't expect it to take three years um which mostly came down to formatting um so and I didn't realize how hard formatting was going to be but um it's done and it'll be up you know in the coming weeks. So congratulations that's exciting well yeah I'm really proud of that.

JD: 59:29

Well we'll make sure we include a link to the book when we do the notes of the show. Yeah absolutely I I want to touch on one more aspect of your artistic self um before we start wrapping up and that is um your you're into I think acrylic art yes no so it's uh resin art I use acrylics um I use I use all different kinds of pigments um and uh well I I you know I was doing the movies um what was I on I was on an alien card

Sara: 1:00:00

Covenant doing the alien um interiors, you know, all those cool kind of you know, where the the aliens have have excreted their their juices on the walls and everything. and um I think we're on set doing that. And I was talking to another uh person working with us, and she said, Do you know about resin art? And I was like, What's that? And she said, Oh, well, you know, it's like a painting, you know, and you put it on a board and rah- rah-rah. So I learnt about it, and then I went and uh to a store and talked to them about it, and they said, Well, you already do resin, so why don't you teach resin art classes? And I'd never done it before. And so I had a one brief lesson, and then they gave me some stacks of paper to follow, and then all of a sudden I was a resin art teacher. , and during those classes I was experimenting with resin as I was teaching. So I I taught their class and then um I do a sample resin board with resin on it, and showed them how to mix colours and stuff like that, and how long it took to set and how much time they have to work with it. And um, I started to build up a a way of um uh sort of you know uh coming up with ideas uh over a two-day period to do artworks. And at that point it was like 50-50 whether it was going to work. And then I realized over time that you you get better and better at it, that you reduce the risk of not having the result you want. it's still very it's still very hard, and particularly working with black is is is really difficult because it takes over everything in the in the colours because it's just it's it's a moving artwork, so it moves into everything. So you've got to really figure it out. And then I invented a couple of techniques and started teaching on my own, um, and had you know started teaching, had a lot of fun doing that. , but I do resin art now for um the pleasure of of doing the art. And um I've had a couple of exhibitions um over time, um, which have been really great and sold pieces. I've sold about 40 pieces now, I think. Oh, that's amazing. And um, and some of the, you know, there's uh somebody sent me a photo, one from Italy, you know, or Adelaide or America, you know, there's my artworks out there, which is great, and it's uh it's a form of art that will last for a very, very long time, longer than Da Vinci. So I'm quite happy with that. You know, whether or not they remember my name is up to them. , but yeah, the um I enjoy the artwork and I've got some really good ideas coming up through some new resin art pieces, and some of them are quite provocative. So there's a I love it.

JD: 1:02:37

My my wife got into uh alcohol uh ink arts a while ago and and then toyed with acrylics and so forth, and I think it's phenomenal. So the creativity there is is amazing. I've got none of it, none at all of it, but I love seeing what people can do. So I'm dying to have a look at some of your works at some point.

Sara: 1:02:55

Yeah, well, I kind of fell into it and then I realized I was really good at it. So um, and then um and then sort of became a master at it. And if you go to PS40 in Sydney, which is kind of like a cocktail bar and hidden in the city there, you will find that there's about 16 tables with my resin artwork on them. Uh, and I got to go there um for drinks one night in the last year or so, and um uh the staff came up to me and said, , are you the one who built the resin art tables? And I said, like, we love sitting at them on our brakes, you know. I thought that was great. That was really nice. And at night it glows in the dark, so it's pretty cool. I have to check that out. I'm fascinated.

JD: 1:03:35

Yeah, PS40 in the city in Sydney. Any excuse for a cocktail bar, what can I say?

Sara: 1:03:40

Well, maybe we should go.

JD: 1:03:42

I've got some standard questions for you that I want to go through. So so as you think about this incredible journey that you've been on and all the experiences you've had, what's been the most significant hurdle that you've encountered and and how did you overcome it?

Sara: 1:03:59

biggest hurdle. learning to embrace my own form of procrastination rather than fight it, which can be exhausting. I believe in my life at least I I procrastinate with it. and when my body's trying to tell me something, I'm just not getting it. Sort of is when I procrastinate. So and I I um Yeah, and and it's just a matter of just listening to your body and listening to uh, you know, the the horrible tinnitus in your head if you've got tinnitus. And um and just stop and then and then just realize what it is you need to do, and then just you know, if if it means that you have to um lie down, lie down, don't try and push yourself because that's just gonna make it worse. So yeah, I I've struggled with procrastination a lot, and I found my way around that was just listening to my body and you know, and then and then if I can't do a task right now, I can do it later, you know, not you know, not worry about it.

JD: 1:05:10

So But it's really interesting, right? So because you know, procrastination, generally speaking, most people would say is a negative thing. Like we all all we all do it to a degree, or more than others, but I think you what you're describing there, if I'm hearing you correctly, is that you treat your procrastination more like intuition. Intuition.

Sara: 1:05:34

Yeah, it's indicated that something's not right in your body or your or or your mind, and you need to work it out.

JD: 1:05:40

I I really like that actually, because I think I I'm a big believer in intuition, I'm a big believer in gut, in gut feeling. And I and uh when I was doing doing my coaching uh masters, uh you know, we used to talk about the intuition being the inner cheaper, and that is you know, you've got all this experience you've gathered, it's not conscious experience, it's all it's all tucked away in your in your subconscious, but at times it will speak to you in ways that don't make sense to you. You'll feel it, you'll you'll get a sense of something. something not really right, or something that's that's an opportunity, or whatever. You won't again understand what it is. And I I think that's what you're talking about in your procrastination being the after effects of that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Okay. So in fact, you haven't overcome it. You've learned to respect it. Yeah, well, I mean, isn't respecting it overcoming it? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean I would certainly have overcome the negative perceptions of procrastination, and I think that's powerful. Yeah.

Sara: 1:06:40

Well, I I I don't tend to look at things in a negative way. So um so yeah.

JD: 1:06:50

I I think it's really thoughtful. I like that a lot. And it's not a not a perspective I've heard before. So I I do, I like it. I think it again in most of my circles, procrastination is is has a very negative connotation to it. , but I like the whole context that it's not procrastination so much as it's it's intuition telling me that I need to let something percolate or I need to wait or I need to think. and I and I like that a lot.

Sara: 1:07:16

So just rest. Or just rest. Yeah. Yeah. And and to stop worrying about it. And you can come back to things later.

JD: 1:07:24

That's quite that's quite liberating. I like that a lot. if you could talk to yourself with all the knowledge and experience and bumps and and breakthroughs that you've had, if you go back to the beginning of this journey with all that knowledge, what's the conversation you're having with yourself?

Sara: 1:07:42

That it's okay to be sensitive and that it can be one of the greatest sources of strength.

JD: 1:07:47

Yep. how does that manifest? Like when you when you say that, what are you thinking about?

Sara: 1:07:55

, I'm thinking about being Gen X and growing up in a place where you're not allowed to have emotions and you have to put rub dirt on it, and you um, you know, I I I just I think of my childhood, I had a great childhood, to be honest. Like I, you know, BMXes and falling off rocks on hills and you know, scrapes and driving Pee Wee 50s to their maximum, you know, and and then running into barbed wire fence twisting sideways, you know, like and then just covered in blood and everything, and then just being told to rub dirt on it, you know, like it's that sort of thing. , and um, and not to cry. And um uh even though I was presenting as a boy at the time, um, you know, it was it I I I I wish that I knew that it was okay to cry as a boy because it it's uh you know, you were told to put up and shut up, and and that stuff from the 70s and 80s is really stuck with our generation. And it's um and I love the fact that so many people uh have turned it into comedy on TikTok now, which is just a constant source of joy for me because um it it is a shared experience within the smallest generation of of all of our generations, and it is um and and and and and we've had we've seen I think the biggest amount of change in our lifetimes than any other generation. So I'm not including boomers in that because boomers are boomers, so no offense. so but the um um it's just that you know we're we're we we're the first who uh you know they talk about the latchkey kids. I don't think we really were latchkey kids in Australia, maybe just the states, but we you know and and we didn't have Grace Jones telling us telling our parents that they had children at 10 p.m. but we definitely had the lights, you know, come on in the streets, and we were definitely out there and we were definitely in the mud and we were definitely I had a BMX gang, you know, where um all of us um you know and I was the leader, so it was you know, talk about warriors, you know. I um there was there was like two girls in our group and there was a few boys and I I was the leader and uh everybody had to give their money to me to buy a chocolate move of which I'd drink half and then you know share the rest with everybody else. so you know it did lead us leadership skills early on.

JD: 1:10:28

Oh, so relatable.

Sara: 1:10:30

The BMX game, sorry. That's so relatable. and I mean obviously uh uh that's not a leadership skill. That's uh that's that's that's power and abuse, but the um but you know I'd like those lessons over time.

JD: 1:10:48

uh I guess I love that your conversation Yeah, no, it's okay. So the question was what would you what would the conversation be with yourself? And I what where you went was that it's okay to be sensitive. It's okay to feel, it's okay to have emotions, it's okay to cry. and you know what a disservice um we did to our kids in that generation, particularly boys, in terms of our expectations. I think we did we created uh a generation that that really struggled in terms of managing that. And thankfully we we are waking up uh so much more now in terms of killing that stereotype uh and and allowing our our kids to grow up with the freedom to have feelings and emotions and so forth. So I'm I think it's so good, isn't it?

Sara: 1:11:38

I I I you know there was so much media criticism of millennials and Gen Z for having feelings, um but I just I I've seen them change the world, yeah, and the way that we see the world. And and and I think, and this is where I come back to sensitivity being a strength, yeah. , a great source of strength is that it's like I I'm so inspired by so many young people. I never thought it would be possible. I thought it'd be the other way around. I'd be inspiring so many young people. And I have heard that I have influenced people. I'm also aware that I scare a few people, so that's fine too. But it's like I I the um usually when I'm doing a panel or something, you know. So but I am truly, and I try to get this point across to them because they don't believe it, but it's like I am truly inspired by um how they're able to deal with challenges uh using sensitivity, whereas that was not a tool that was allowed in our toolkit as kids. Right. Right. So but I've adopted that, and and that is so important.

JD: 1:12:47

and it to some degree it goes back to the uh the conversation we had around storytelling and the ability to influence based on on good narratives uh and and the emotions and feelings that go with those. I I think it's very powerful, um, and I'm certainly glad that we've evolved uh in that way. I think it's fabulous. So that makes makes a ton of sense, Sara.

Sara: 1:13:06

Yeah.

JD: 1:13:07

if um who set the biggest influence on you and why? Well, this is particularly hard for me.

Sara: 1:13:16

okay, so um I grew up in an abusive household. so and something that the person still to this day denies that they ever did. and I had real difficulty with authority, uh, or anybody have any any sort of um authority over my person. and so even though I was told, you know, early on you should get a mentor, you should listen to blah blah blah, I resisted very strongly for a long time. And it cost me dearly uh academically during my formative years. like I I just didn't want to listen to authority at all. uh that's not to say I was like my girlfriend at the time who was you know going off and chaining herself to a tree during a protest, you know, but um but I supported her in that. I I just didn't um I just didn't really really have mentors um that really changed my life in much of a way. I'd say um you know, Mur Murta from the from the Lethal Weapons series when I was presenting as a boy and I had first had to shave for the first time, instead of my father teaching me how to shave, uh I I was taught by him, you know, how to go with the grain, you know. That was something that um that really stuck with me. so just little things, I guess. , you know, I was I was inspired by Madiba and um uh the uh the Freedom Fighters against apartheid. I was I was inspired about you know what was happening in Burma at the time. Obviously things have changed there with my Anmar and the person who sort of inspired me at the time becoming you know worse than the perpetrators. there's um but yeah, I guess you know, I I I I've I've more than anything I've had to rely on myself. and I couldn't really look to my elders to say, you know, I in terms of success or any measure of success or any measure of um uh skill because they just hadn't done that themselves. And I I was very quick to catch on to how I had to be independent and trust myself and kind of make my own decisions, and I made a lot of terrible decisions. but um the key thing is that you learn. That's right. That's the point. If you learn, if you learn from your mistakes, and sometimes you need to you know repeat those mistakes in order to learn, um, then um each time you're learning something new that you can pass on to somebody else, if the opportunity comes around.

JD: 1:16:05

Hopefully you're not making the same mistakes multiple times, that's the key.

Sara: 1:16:08

but but I think I mean and it's and it is forgivable in the sense that like maybe your headspace was not in the right place. Maybe you're maybe you're you know, um, if if you were doing illegal substances at the time, or if you were um uh you know in an abusive family situation, or if you just didn't have the opportunities that other people that you saw had, um uh and you couldn't get out of that headspace, um it can create repeat scenarios. So it is trying to tell you, try and figure this out. And it's not an easy thing to do for a lot of people, and a lot of people just don't get the opportunity to do that at all. So I'm very grateful for my experiences in terms of that. So and and very grateful that I've had at least some idea of what to do to figure this stuff out, yeah. And realizing that I uh you know had to treat things as a challenge, you know.

JD: 1:17:10

So everything's had a purpose. Is there a ritual or a hack or a habit that you've adopted that you rely on that makes a difference in terms of your effectiveness or um Yeah.

Sara: 1:17:28

I mentioned I think I was in cadets, um and um I sort of have just uh if I get stuck in a certain way, I just I I remind myself to um um sort of keep marching forward, keep moving forward, soldier. And um uh I have two I guess you know, philosophies around that. one comes from my uh from the Australian crest, which is uh always keep moving forward.

JD: 1:18:04

Yes.

Sara: 1:18:05

Right. and uh the other one is uh Morse Ot Honorabilis Vita, which is the Joyce Fam Joyce family crest, uh meaning um an honorable life before death. Right. And so I try to adhere to that. I'm pretty sure Barnaby Joyce doesn't adhere to that. Pretty sure Alan Joyce doesn't adhere to that. I'm pretty sure most of my Joyce family don't adhere to that, but I adhere to that because it means something to me. And I love it that it's in Latin. but yeah, I mean an honorable life before death, it actually means something to me. So I try to live my life as honorably honorably as I possibly could can, telling the truth to my detriment. and I I actually believe in that stuff.

JD: 1:18:53

Okay, I love that. That's awesome. Uh I got a two-part question or a two uh two-sided question here. Sure. I love these questions. When you when you need superpowers, when you need to do something hard and you need to be able to find that energy, you want those resources, that creativity, what happens to be? Where do you get your superpowers from? Is there something that you do or is a source that you go to to invoke your superpowers?

Sara: 1:19:25

yeah, I just again it's like the it's that keep moving forward soldier thing. I mean, sorry if that's a bit repetitive, but it's like the it's um that that it's just that that mental drill that I had drilled into me as a teenager, um which seemed to work for me. So um it kind of what it does is it erases everything that's irrelevant um and just makes me focus on the task ahead.

JD: 1:19:57

Right.

Sara: 1:19:58

So and and the idea of just marching forward or marching up the hill, you know, or doing a 25 kilometer march with an SLR slung over your shoulder and you're in, you know, heavy fatigues and you're going through the Australian bush in 40 degree heat, which I've done in the past. it it's um it's just a reminder. I guess you know that that was part of the the discipline of my youth, and it it's stuck a bit like I still to this day can't put my hands in my pockets when I have pockets because that was the thing you weren't allowed to do. and I I think yeah, it's uh it's just habit forming, really. I'm sorry if that's not too inspiring, but it works for me.

JD: 1:20:49

That's it it if it's your if it's your model, it's your model. And by the way, you're invoking images very clearly in my mind of bivouac at Singleton Base.

Sara: 1:20:58

Biverwack.

JD: 1:21:00

I was another kidette as well.

Sara: 1:21:01

You are too, right.

JD: 1:21:03

And uh I I do recall being yeah, yeah, wonder and doing and doing bivouac and doing the the marches with full packs and uh and rifles and whatever it was about. Hiding in the bushes so they can spot you and nightcrawl. Nightcrawls, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was uh great fun, and it was tough. It was tough. It was tough, it was quite developing.

Sara: 1:21:23

So I remember when we first got night vision.

JD: 1:21:26

Yeah, I didn't have night vision, we just had a can based basically the lantern and and the scrub, that was it.

Sara: 1:21:31

In the early 90s, we somebody had somebody from the army, uh, I think it was a corporal or something who brought night vision goggles along to one of those, and uh we were we were fascinated.

JD: 1:21:42

I did give a whack in the 70s, we won't talk about that. that makes sense. And in fact, your your answer in uh kind of uh pulls two things for me. one of them is how do you need an elephant, you know, one bite after another. But the other one that I really, really like sorry, say that one again. How do you need an elephant?

Sara: 1:22:05

Why would you edit an elephant? They're intelligent creatures, they're beautiful creatures. Why would you need an elephant? They remember you after 50 years, you know.

JD: 1:22:15

but the notion is it's you know something really huge, and the way you do it is one bite, one bite, one bite. But the other one is you know, when you don't know what to do, just do something. Do something. , and and I think both of those, you know, I when I hear you say uh always about moving forward, it's always about progress. It's always about whether it might be minor progress, but it's yeah.

Sara: 1:22:39

I think also acknowledging that you know you you might take steps back, and that's okay to do. And sometimes that just happens, and sometimes it happens for a reason. So um, and just learning to accept those fools, and you know, they do use it a lot in you know Disney cartoons where it's like you've got to get that right back up, you know, sort of thing. And it but that's right, yeah. Obviously, obviously, Australians are not as cheesy as Americans when it comes to this, but um but it's an actual like it is about like and you don't have to show off to anybody, it's not about anybody else other than yourself. it's it's about your acknowledgement of your own ability to bounce back um and where that bouncing back goes to, and having an understanding of if it's fitting into your you know goals and and and the challenges that you want to face. So and we all you know take side quests, it's okay.

JD: 1:23:42

As long as we learn something. So let me flip the question. Let me flip the question. What's your kryptonite? You know, what is it that will take the the energy out of you and how do you overcome it?

Sara: 1:23:52

Vapes. Vapes and cigarette smoke on the train or in public spaces. I have asthma. I literally choke and become furious with rage, and it's difficult for me to recover from, not necessarily from the breathing problems, but from the rage. , uh unfortunately I've had a lot of practice at it, and I'm still practicing at it because some idiot on the train on the Blue Mountains is smoking in between the carriages, or they're vaping on the train and trying to get away with it. There is no reason for a 12-year-old to have a vape. There is no reason in the world for a 12-year-old to have a vape. , I've written a poem about it, it's in my book. , I was so angry about this. I mean, apart from the fact that they're killing their lungs and that it's been proven medically that it is uh horrible for a human being, and that it's not as addictive as cigarette smoke. There is it's just something that's cool, right? And I mean you remember when it first came out, when when vapes first came out, and a whole bunch of vape places opened up and it was kind of cool for a little bit and it was kind of a thing, and then you know, medical always follows the the hype, and and then it was bad. And it's like, you know, I smoked a couple for a little while at a cyberpunk nightclub and or a goth nightclub and looked cool for two seconds, and that was great. It's so unhealthy for the people around you, not just you. And the thing is, the particulates in the atmosphere can kill people like me, can stop me from breathing, and it just pisses me off so much. and the secondary concern is the health of the children who are actually doing it. , and it just makes people deceptive, um, it just makes people um, you know, they don't look cool. They look like dickheads, honestly. , and especially if they're doing it in a public place where um you're risking other people's health. That's my kryptonite.

JD: 1:25:49

No, that makes sense. And it's it's interesting to observe a number of countries now are putting uh total bans on them. Singapore has gone like really hardcore on them. uh you just can't even bring them into the country. Uh but it is interesting because they've they have identified that because they appear to be harmless, they're actually gravely more um more dangerous than cigarettes. Uh people have uh are killing themselves that these things are better for you, but in reality there's some major issues there. So I get it. I totally get it. Uh makes sense. if you could only read or listen to one book for the rest of your life, which would it be and why uh The Stainless Steel Rat by Harry Harrison.

Sara: 1:26:36

it has everything. It's cyberpunk, dystopian, sci-fi. It's about a guy learning to try to be a thief, um, you know, and fit in between the concrete pavements um uh, you know, in in a very strict society. And I think in the time when Harry Harrison wrote this book, uh it you know, he was sort of imagining the future. We're living that future now, right? Except, you know, there's a lot more spaceships in it in in his version. But um, but yeah, Harry had had some really, really unique ideas about it as an Irish-American writer, and he um uh I got to talk to him a bit in the 90s. We emailed back and forth uh because I was talking about potentially doing a movie based on the story. and um, of course, you know, he did build the Galactic Hero and a whole bunch of other stories, but he had a massive um series of stainless steel rat. So um to go back to the original The Stainless Steel Rat, um and you know, the psychotic girlfriend that the guy gets uh uh she gets it, she ends up getting a chip in her head so that she doesn't kill people anymore. It's quite funny. , and um and yeah, uh I I I think before Fifth Element, you know, this book was talking about McSweeneys, you know, porcous swines, which was a mix of different animals that was basically McDonald's, right? And so you know, that whole scene where they're flying in fifth element to the to the takeaway of McDonald's, it is it is exactly what I envisioned my head reading that book, you know. So um, and I love the fact that he tries to get into, you know, like he tried he's actually actively trying to get into prison so he can learn the skills, you know, to hack, you know, ATMs. It's like it's such a reverse kind of psychological event. And like the judge is willing to let him off for no reason at all, you know. It was like you haven't done anything, and then and then he does everything in his power to try and get imprisoned.

JD: 1:28:36

Brilliant. And sit in a future. I'll make sure there's a link to the book in the notes.

Sara: 1:28:42

Yeah, Harry Harrison. Look, you know, and and and just getting to speak to the author before he passed away, it was such a privilege. I've done that with some of the people that have inspired me over the years. David Lynch, I got to talk to him for a while, and he was a big fan of Machete Girl magazine, so that's why we were talking, we're talking about future dystopias, and I was telling him how much he fucked up my childhood with Twin Peaks, you know. And um, he was like, Thank you. Do you want to join my meditation cult? And I was like, Yeah, sure. , I hear Hugh Jackmans in it. , and so yeah, no, I I I I've had a lot of privileged conversations like that in my life.

JD: 1:29:18

So that's brilliant. Well, I it sounds like you initiate them, and I think that's wonderful.

Sara: 1:29:22

Well, I you know, I I I was one of those people who wrote to Jackie Chan as a kid, you know, and then like I I wro I you know got an email, a letter back from his brother, you know, saying Jackie really appreciates this, rah rah rah. , and then I think, you know, when the first Star Wars came about, I wrote to um the casting director and I got a letter rejection letter back, and then but then I got an audition for Star Wars Episode 2, which was great, and I'm in that, which is fantastic.

JD: 1:29:50

If you don't ask it again, I love it. That's fantastic. Last question for you. Is there a quote that you turn to? So a famous quote or um somebody you know's quote or your own quote.

Sara: 1:30:04

And what the memorable one I have in my toolkit is by Carlos Castananda, which um I've adapted a bit for gender. Uh he said um the basic difference between an ordinary person and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary person takes everything as a blessing or a curse.

JD: 1:30:22

Right.

Sara: 1:30:23

So um it's uh again it's that warrior mentality um of of always moving forward. And then um I mean there was something similar, it wasn't Sun Tzu, but it was another Japanese philosopher who said something similar where it's like you know, you're um trying to get home and it's raining and you're hiding underneath the the sheltering, and um, you know, you the result is you still end up getting wet, you know. So something similar like that. But yeah, it was always the um um see life's challenges rather than say them as a blessing or a curse.

JD: 1:31:00

Right.

Sara: 1:31:01

Right. more recently I've been listening to Alan Watts a lot. and that idea of the false idea of who you are, uh um, you know, what's in a name, um, and uh that we're all just the you know the fabric of the universe um exploring itself. I love that stuff. I don't think I agree with everything he says, but I think um his his teaching, because you can just watch them on YouTube and be careful because there's AI versions of his voice now on there with fake versions of stuff he never said. So just be careful, make sure it's coming from the right source. but I found it really comforting to be honest. and it it that feeds into my uh connection with working with software-defined radio and uh you know using old technology with new, old philosophy with new. I mean, like Alan did take a lot from you know older philosophies, but he put them in a 70s, 50s, 60s, 70s context, right? Now we're living in uh you know 2025. I think enough time has passed that we can sort of say, wow, isn't it cool that it's like mixing philosophies between 1970 and 2025, rah, rah, rah. , because you know, the the hippie generation and everything. So it's like um uh and then kind of folding into the technological generation.

JD: 1:32:29

So there's an element of us basically regurgitating things through generations and adapting them to the generation. I you know, I go back to the the notion of the of the hero's journey, right? And the hero's journey as a structure is very consistent, but I can apply that to the medieval era and tell a story, but I can apply that right now in 2025 and tell a story, and it still makes sense in terms of a structure. , we didn't really talk about artificial intelligence, and I normally do ask about it, so that was my miss. How are you using it? And and what are you what are your thoughts on where we're going with AI?

Sara: 1:33:04

Well, I leverage it. I I I do 100% of my own writing. , but if I'm posting a story on, say, vocal.media or something, um, it's handy to have like a little image of something that kind of shows what I'm saying uh in terms of the poem or sort or short story. and you know, I'd I've used Mid Journey and Night Cafe for that sort of stuff. In cybersecurity, we've been using artificial intelligence for for nigh on 15 years. and it I mean it's it's just it's a tool. and with the current advances and and penetrating into the arts and um and um you know fake actors being created. I I think that that is all of that stuff's a bit disingenuous. I think it's explorative on some level, um, but it's um i if you're doing it with the intent of replacing art, then you're the problem. If you're doing it to add as a uh element or a tool um to work with um and to improve your ability to learn and create, then I think that's great. there is like everything, there is a good side and a dark side, and AI definitely has a good side and a dark side. a good example is I saw an interview with um uh uh an artist uh from the Central Coast, uh Nina Girachi, who is an international DJ now, um thanks to the pandemic, um, and um, or you know, her own talents. and she's somebody who embraces technology wholeheartedly and mixes it with with music and creation and um comes up with some really good stuff. And I I've sort of promoted her a little bit in my magazine um uh in the last issue. And I just really, really uh, you know, uh taking taking what could be considered sort of pop music into um an EDM realm and just mixing it with these new technologies and then doing music videos where she's sitting at a computer just searching constantly, and then when she walks away from a computer, her computer starts doing its own thing, you know, like and and then she comes back to the computer and like she sees the thing. And the song is like, you know, um, I saw him, the man without a head, you know, and it's like the computer searching for a man without a head, and it's it's got like the title of the song and everything coming up. It's quite quite good, quite good. I really I I I really kind of enjoy that. And I don't know how much she's used AI in that, but she has said that she embraces that.

JD: 1:35:53

So I think maybe I think maybe I I I as you said that, you know, what I'm thinking in my head is that if you tell me that something was if you advertise something as AI musical AI generated art and and you embrace that, fantastic. I'm okay with that. In fact, there's some amazing AI art out there that I love, it's fantastic. But if you give me something that is being promoted as authentic, but it's not, that's where I think that the concern I have is, and then of course, what we have today is is generative AI, which means that it's taking legitimate IP content that somebody handcrafted and then using that to generate new imagery. And that to me feels like plagiarism.

Sara: 1:36:39

Well, it is, and it's um I I'm glad that um at least on some level that we're talking about it in government and with the Media Entertainment Arts Alliance. , but look there's gonna be the people who leverage it and embrace it, and they're gonna create amazing things, and then there's gonna be people who fall behind. And there's gonna be people in both camps, and there's gonna be purists, and there's gonna be um uh you know on both sides, and um, you know, however they end up getting their work seen is legitimate as far as I'm concerned. yeah, don't claim it's your work when it's not your work. Yeah, yeah. there are gonna be people who do that and they will get caught out. It's and it's like, you know, uh there'll come a point where um the media and people just won't care anymore. And that's where we need to be cautious because um because then what is the meaning of being an artist? What is the you know, um you know, I guess, you know, if i i if you're looking at that in the context of being external, if it's internal, then you come up with your own reasons. And uh we already talk so much in the world about how so many artists don't get their due um and you know overlooks and and stuff like that. And it's very true, but that just really depends on your perspective for what you want to do with your art. I mean, like if you're putting it out there and people respond to it, great. If they don't, great. It's like, you know, we're all gonna be dead at some point, and it doesn't really matter.

JD: 1:38:26

Well, that's the nature of art too, right? It's you know, it's it's it definitely in the eye of the beholder as to whether it's interesting to them.

Sara: 1:38:32

And I guess I know, I I know at least my resin art wasn't is pro some of it's gonna probably be around a thousand years from now. But whether or not my name is still on the art or whether people remember that it's me, it just doesn't really matter. What matters for me is that I've created something that I felt was special and um and I've been able to let it go. And that's the experience. I mean, when I first started selling my artwork, I made the people who were buying it stay around for an hour because I was trying to say goodbye to the artwork because it meant so it meant so much to me, right? And and then it was like giving away a pet or something, and it was just it's so heartbreaking, and then I'd learnt to let go of it a lot sooner, you know. It's just like, okay, I've had that experience now, so it's time for this person to enjoy it.

JD: 1:39:21

So the joy is in the creation, not the retention. Yeah, yeah, I like it. Look, this has been awesome. I knew this was gonna be a an interesting joint, interesting conversation, because as I said at the beginning, you've done so much and you still do so much, and it's such a diverse set of experiences and so forth. And I've loved um more about you. I'd love learning about your journey and the perspectives that you have. I'm gonna be watching you and watching what you do going forward because I just know you're like it's gonna be crazy watching things and good things, and I I have so much respect for you doing. But um, but thank you for making the time, it's been great. I will share the contact details, a link to the chicken girl magazine, um, a link to your new book, um, and then we'll talk poetry by Sara, Elizabeth Joe, it's coming soon. Yeah, so we'll we'll we'll promote that as well. , but thank you so much for coming on the episode. I really appreciate it. , listeners, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, I hope you're living your best life. And good as we please be good to each other. See you all soon. Thanks, John. Thanks, everybody.