Kim Acosta's Journey: Corporate Recruiter to Entrepreneur

What does it take to leave the security of a corporate career and build a business from scratch? Kim Acosta, founder and CEO of UCentric recruitment, shares her remarkable journey from corporate recruiter to entrepreneur in this candid conversation.

As a mother who had her first child at 22, Kim's purpose has always been clear: to be a positive role model for her daughters. This driving force led her through an MBA, international relocation, and eventually to founding her own recruitment company with a distinctly human approach.

The conversation explores how Kim balances entrepreneurship with family life, breaking traditional stereotypes along the way. Her husband's equal partnership at home proves crucial to their shared vision and success—a refreshing perspective on modern family dynamics that challenges conventional gender roles.

Kim's recruitment expertise shines as she explains how her experience as an internal recruitment leader at Amazon shapes UCentric's approach. Unlike typical agencies rushing to place candidates, she focuses on long-term business outcomes and authentic candidate assessment. Her insights on building personal brands and activating networks are gold for anyone navigating today's uncertain job market.

Perhaps most fascinating is the parallel Kim draws between marathon running and entrepreneurship. Neither a runner nor a business owner until recently, she's embraced both challenges with the same philosophy: consistent small steps lead to remarkable achievements. "Consistency always wins," she explains, breaking down how she applies this mindset to business growth.

Whether you're contemplating entrepreneurship, seeking career advice, or simply love stories of people defying limitations, this episode delivers authentic insights from someone who's living proof that stepping outside your comfort zone is where growth truly happens.

To learn more about Kim and UCentric:

https://www.ucentric.com.au/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ucentricpeople/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimacosta1/

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Kim Acosta
• 8:30 Purpose and Role Modeling
• 18:11 From Arts Background to Recruitment
• 33:18 Living and Working in Luxembourg
• 42:22 Building UCentric from Scratch
• 52:40 UCentric's Unique Differentiators
• 1:01:33 Navigating Career Uncertainty
• 1:12:02 Marathon Running and Business Mindset
• 1:16:37 Final Reflections and Life Philosophy
• 1:19:33 AI in Recruitment

Transcript

JD: 0:03

Hi listeners and welcome back to the JD's Journal podcast. I'm so pleased that you've decided to join again. Thank you so much for supporting the podcast. Today, my guest uh for this episode is Kim Acosta, who is the founder and CEO of Eucentric, a recruitment company here in uh in Sydney and serving Australia today. Um's an MBA and a BA in psychology and performance studies. Um, and before Eucentric, you know, Kim has over 15 years of experience in recruitment. I first met Kim at Amazon, um, though we uh we we never actually had a chance to work together specifically, but we certainly engaged. But I was able to observe her success as a recruiter there and uh and particularly with the leadership in technology infrastructure and operations, uh, which was pretty near and dear to my heart as well. Um and so uh we've connected subsequently, and I've been excited to watch Kim and the work that she's doing in setting up Eucentric. I love the philosophy that she's got for her company, which I'll certainly make sure we share today. So, Kim, welcome. Um, I hope I introduced you okay. Is there anything you want to add or change or delete from my introduction?

Kim: 1:10

It's absolutely fine, and thank you so much for the very generous uh introduction. Um, so yeah, it's great to be on JD's journal and yeah, great experience being the one interviewed, not being the interviewer this time.

JD: 1:26

Well, that's a great point, right? So uh I was very fortunate enough to be a guest on your podcast just recently as well, and I think it's fantastic we have an opportunity to flip the table and put you in the spotlight for a bit and show off some of the work that you're doing. I think it's quite exciting. So we've got a pretty good sense of what you're doing. Um, we'll go into more detail on that, but I always want to start with you know, what's what's driving the engine there? And so the question I've got for you is what's Kim Acosta's purpose? What's the legacy that you want to leave in your wake?

Kim: 1:58

Yeah, so I guess my purpose is really simple, John. I really want to be a positive role model to my two daughters. So they're now aged uh 14 and 11. Uh so growing up and entering those teenage years. And I just really want to be a positive role model to them. I want to be able to show them what women can do and achieve. And I think it's really important that they see mum doing that. You know, we have a pretty traditional upbringing, like both my husband and I, we both came from, you know, very both Filipino in background, and there are some gender norms there in play around the role of mum and dad, but I really wanted them to see what mums could be capable of so that they could role model that uh into their adult years. So I think that that's what's really driven me to try and climb my career as much as possible. It's what's driven me to do the MBA, even though I never had a business background, I came from an arts psychology background in my undergrad. And you know, I also want them to not only see what I could achieve from a professional setting, but like a personal setting as well. I really want them to see that if you are gonna go into something like business or if you're gonna go into your career, like always put a human lens on it, always put yourself in the shoes of your customers, your colleagues, and everyone that you're working in, just having that integrity in the way that you operate.

JD: 3:48

I love that, and I and I love that you are with deliberacy um acting as a role model uh and an inspiration for your girls. I think that's phenomenal. And I I want to say, I think you're you like it or not, you're acting as a role model for any woman who's thinking about, you know, uh the opportunity to have a career or the opportunity to be a professional, the opportunity to set up their own business. So I think that's that's incredibly inspiring. And and I've got to imagine, you know, at the beginning of your journey in terms of setting uh eucentric, there has to have been some periods there of of doubt and and and consideration in terms of I'm gonna take this leap and set up my own business, which is not for the faint of heart. You know, what I've got to ask you, what was the catalyst for you in terms of that purpose? And what was the catalyst for you in terms of of moving forward with Eucentric?

Kim: 4:36

Yeah, so I think that um growing up, I was able to see what business could could bring to a family, and just being able to, yeah, I guess, you know, take control of your destiny a little bit. Um growing up, my parents they migrated from the Philippines and they had some great careers already over there before they moved to Australia. My dad was a mechanical engineer, mum was an aspiring diplomat, and they had great jobs, uh, but they left it all behind, and then they really struggled to make it into the Australian job market. Um, and they had to do what they can what they could uh to you know provide for the family. It was me, my sister at the time. And, you know, I saw my dad working in as an operator in in uh chemical plants. Um, that's what he did. He worked for Waddle for a number of years, and then he realized he was actually really, really good around the house, like in carpentry and things like that. And he was actually able to set up his own business installing timber floors and uh did a great job with that. He's still going, he's uh he's over 60 now, and he's still going. Um, and he's fantastic at what he does. And through the business, even though it was so hard in the beginning, my dad would work in the chemical plant in the evenings and then in the day lay timber floors in the very beginning. Um, eventually he was able to go full-time and help provide a really awesome life for me and my siblings. So it was just, you know, I think really reflecting back, just watching my dad do that, take control of his destiny, uh, and just really go for it, like have the conviction in what you do. And yeah, I think with my own career, it got to a point uh working in Amazon and go through the layoff cycle, maybe. That's probably what sort of prompted me to go, okay. I've I want to take control of uh my career from here. I don't want to be at the mercy of you know decisions being made overseas. Um, so yeah, you know, and I you know how it is, John. Like working in Amazon, it is a place where you really have to build that work ethic. And you know, it's it's busy, it's ever-changing. And I just thought at one point that if I worked this hard for Amazon, I'm pretty sure I could pull off something decent if I went off on my own. Yep.

JD: 7:24

Yep, I agree. I I love the logic there, that makes a lot of sense. And I can see the inspiration from your father in terms of being entrepreneurial reflected in you too. I think it's coming through very strongly. So I'm sure, you know, as you were thoughting at thinking through what your strategy was, there's some of that coming through in terms of observing your father go through that experience as well. Um, and and like he did juggling the daytime job and then doing his building his business on the side. Um, I'm sure you're juggling a lot right now as well yourself. Could could you take a moment, like let's take a step back and kind of give us a you know, a kind of summary, kind of walkthrough of your journey? Like you've you've had the 15 years of experience as a recruiter. Uh what was what was going on before there and and how did that kind of manifest itself?

Kim: 8:12

Yeah, so I think that I ended up in recruitment, and I've only ever done recruitment, uh, which is very interesting for someone in the industry because typically people would have some other professional career before they come into recruiting. Uh for me, I stepped straight into recruiting fresh out of university, and I think I was just, to be honest, a little bit lost with what I wanted to do in my career. Um, I like I said, I did a Bachelor of Arts majoring in psychology and performance studies. So similar to you, John, I really loved the stage growing up, and you know, I really enjoyed that, and I really enjoyed I guess psychology. I was fascinated by people. And you know, I just actually someone just showed up to a university lecture, and they were a recruiter, and it was Careers Week, and she just sort of shared with everyone what she did, and she explained that it was a sales role, and I was like, Oh, okay, yeah, I could sort of do that. I had a bit of a background in sales, I did door-to-door sales when I was 18. I did um nightclub promotions and used to get uh commission from all the people that uh would sort of walk through the door in particular nightclub events in Sydney. Um, and I was just like, yeah, look, that sounds like a pretty cool job. I could do that. Uh, and then yeah, right after I finished my degree, there was an opportunity that I applied for, which was a technology recruiter or like a graduate recruiter in technology. And I was like, I have no idea about technology, but I'm gonna apply for it anyway. So I did. Um and yeah, got stuck straight into a pretty technical recruitment role. I was doing development and testing recruitment uh from my very first gig as a fresh 21-year-old grad. Um and then I guess one of the most formative experiences for me was as a 21-year-old grad, I discovered I was pregnant at the end of uh my first three months. And um yeah, I guess I've always been a working, a working mom. And I think that that really I think it makes it very obvious now to everyone like why I am the way that I am.

JD: 10:38

Yeah, well, all creds to you. I I I don't think I can relate to balancing motherhood and a full-time career. I really can't, you know. I think we kid ourselves sometimes, we think we understand it as men. Um, I it's remarkable, I think, the way that it works out. I know I I watched my mum uh balance the her her role and and parenthood and so forth, and I'm still uh in awe of how you do that. Um but um I've got to ask the question because you're right, I am into performance and the theater and so forth. Did you perform?

Kim: 11:12

Yeah, so when I was in high school, I absolutely loved uh music. So I used to sing, I I loved dancing. I was never a trained dancer, but I just loved to do it. And I think it's part of that Filipino culture from young, from a young age, you know, where you're taught to sing karaoke and you know, encouraged to, you know, throw performances in front of family members. So there was that. And yeah, I guess you know, being on the stage, it's it's an amazing, uh, amazing thing, right? Like it just teaches you to put yourself out there and yeah, put yourself up there out there for judgment. You know, people might think you're really good, really bad, but you know, the fact that you're putting yourself out there, that very act is it just teaches you so much in life. I I couldn't agree more. And I also would say, um, having worked with and also performed with a number of Filipinos in my life, um, if you want to go to a good party where you're guaranteed to hear singing and probably get dragged in to sing yourself, um, go to a Filipino party or an Irish within those two is guaranteed. If you're Irish or Filipino, you will be singing. Yeah, yeah. I actually had uh I actually had a client of mine saying that, oh yeah, you know, um they know that I don't drink. So they're like, oh, I guess no karaoke for you, Kim. I was like, no, I am Filipino, I don't need to be drinking anything. I could be, you know, nine months pregnant. And if there's a karaoke mic on there, I will know exactly the song I want to sing. 100%. There's no alcohol required for Filipinos to do karaoke at all. Guaranteed it's gonna be fun. I love it. It's awesome. And I'm with you. You'd love uh one of the karaoke setups in my cousin's place in Texas. They actually have the full mic stands and you know, cutting edge uh sound systems, and they, you know, they're they're literally singing and choreographed dancing when they do their karaoke. Not surprised me one bit at all, Kim. I think that's fantastic. I love it. I think it's brilliant. And uh and I've got to agree with you. I think that uh, you know, uh the skills that we get, the the experiences we get out of performing, uh go well beyond uh karaoke, well beyond that. I think that they're phenomenal. And you know, uh, I I think it's one of the healthier things that you can do for your kids is get them involved in music and get them comfortable singing or playing or or performing in some way. I think it's just brilliant. So I I'm thrilled. You and I have never talked about you performing before, so I love that. It's awesome. Yeah, I don't normally share it. I don't have an opportunity to share that aspect. Um it's out now, you can't hide it now. It's out there, it's in the in the public wild, so you know, look out. Maybe I could get back into it. That you should, absolutely. It's good therapy. So I know that your journeys also included, uh, like myself, living in in multiple countries. I know you're in Luxembourg there. Do you want to share a little bit of your experience and what that's had in terms of influence on your life? Yeah, look, I think living in Luxembourg was perhaps one of the perhaps it was the best two and a half years of our life as a family. I'm so grateful for that experience. Um, it was fantastic. I ended up moving there during towards the tail end of the pandemic, and I guess I was very fortunate to have had leaders who were based in Europe. For some reason, Amazon Australia's recruitment team had reporting lines up to Europe rather than the US or rather than Asia at the time. And I had a manager based in Poland, and I finished my MBA, and I had a one-to-one with her and pretty much said, Hey, you know, nothing's really keeping me in in Sydney anymore. If anything comes up over there, let me know. And lo and behold, there was an opportunity to move over, and it was just incredible. I loved Luxembourg so much. Like, yes, you know, you're not gonna get the the Sydney sunshine. You might for like three months of the year, but you know, it was so central in Europe. We used to just go traveling around. I spent one birthday of mine over there in Lake Como in Italy, and we literally drove from our house to to Lake Como, and then the other birthday we ended up, I believe, going to Prague, and again, we just literally drove from our house to Prague, and it was awesome. Just the traveling we got to do, you know, really opened the eyes of the kids. You know, they went to a public school over there, so they learned how to speak German and French, and yeah, it's it was it was awesome. I I would not trade that experience for the world. It wasn't always easy, like it's not an English-speaking country, or at least it's not an officially English-speaking country, but yeah, absolutely loved it. And I'm not surprised at all with your your response to that. Uh you know, I've lived internationally as well, and I've got to say the European experience is one of my favorite experiences. We lived in Berlin for a few years, lived in the UK as well. And uh, and I again uh it there's something very special about the European experience in general. Uh, it's it's different and it's quite unique, uh, I find. And that that ability to hop on a plane on on Friday night and go somewhere for the weekend, or hop in the car and go somewhere for the weekend and and uh experience, you know, another place, another country, another moment, it's just remarkable. But like you, um the influence on my kids as they're now adults uh here back in Australia is sort of significant as well. You can see it every day, they have a different perspective of the world and a different level of adaptability, I think, uh, in terms of what they do. And it sounds like you're seeing the same thing. Yeah, definitely. You know, my youngest daughter, she's the one that learned German um during her years in uh in Luxembourg. And she just, you know, she wants she's always saying it now, like she wants to go, she wants to go to Germany to do university. Uh I would never have thought that that was a possibility when I was growing up. And you've just normalized that for your kids when you when you take them out to see the world, they become these like global citizens. And it's really awesome. Yeah, I I think that's it's it's powerful, it's really powerful. By the way, I've said this before on this podcast: if you want to cure racism, travel, like go places and and and experience cultures and so forth. It's that makes such a different, such a difference in terms of how you perceive the world and how you perceive people in general. Um, I'm curious. Uh I I learnt German in school and I was so excited to move to Germany because I was going to be able to practice my German and and really refine it. And I found that nobody wanted to speak German. They wanted to practice their English on me. Did you find that people spoke German? Yeah, yeah. Probably because my French or my German was just that bad that whenever I attempted, they were just like, Okay, let's just speak English. Well, see, I thought that was the case too, but when I asked somebody at the shopkeeper, I said, Is my German that bad? They said, Oh, your German's fine. I want to practice my English. And I'm like, Oh, okay, fine.

JD: 18:55

Oh, that's so cute.

Kim: 18:57

Yeah. Um, look, I'm glad you had that experience. As I said, I I I think anybody that hasn't spent time in Europe, uh, do it. It's it's great. Uh, and I always recommend uh anybody who that I work with from a career perspective, if you can get an international assignment, just do it. It's it's good for you, and it's it's it's really good on your resume, and it and it kind of opens up your eyes in ways that are quite powerful and so forth.

JD: 19:23

Yeah.

Kim: 19:24

Let's talk about the transition. So you've come from the corporate life, uh, which was tough, I agree. I've been in that in that environment with you, and as you said earlier, the it the expectations are pretty full on, uh, no question about it. But now you've moved into being an entrepreneur running your own company. Um, how how's the transitional experience been? And and can you share some of the realities of of you know being an entrepreneur, building your own business from the ground up? Yeah, I guess uh when you are building the the business from the ground up with no one else involved, I think that you end up wearing every single hat of every single business function. So that's been that's been fun. You learn about what you enjoy and what you don't. Uh, and for me, it's been I absolutely love marketing, I love business development, I love just just getting out there and you know, trying to sell yourself. I I really enjoy that. And even though I was an internal recruiter for so many years and that wasn't part of my role, like that skill just sort of came back and came back naturally for me. Um, so I really love that, and I just love like, you know, just building relationships, like a lot of satisfaction, bringing on new customers. I think that's the most exciting thing. Um, and then yeah, you discover there are things that you don't like, and I don't like finance and I don't really like legal, I don't have to do it, you know, you have no choice, but yeah, you you wear many hats, and it's a big transition because in Amazon and a big company like that, like you know who to approach across all the different, um different sort of cross-functional teams. And you know, I think for me the biggest challenge of sort of going down this entrepreneurship path is that I was such a social person at work, like I, you know, even Luxembourg, I was the hub captain for talent acquisition. I used to organize team events and breakfasts, and I knew everyone that worked there. And I was just that social butterfly at work, and then to sort of go into like a business solo, like sometimes I'm just there going, Oh my gosh, I wish I had someone to talk to, or yeah, it's just very solitary, and I think that for me that's been one of the most challenging things day to day. I'm not gonna lie, like that's been that's been hard. But I guess you know, I've been very fortunate that I kept a lot of my old colleagues as friends, and sometimes I enjoy interacting with them as friends, uh, more so than having had to work with them. Um, so I've been very fortunate that you know I've kept a lot of those people close. Yeah, you know, I'm talking to you today, you know, you're a colleague, he's become a friend. Um, so yeah, I I take a lot of comfort in that. I think it's a really great call out, you know, and this is my second go at setting up an organization of my own as well. So I'm very much walking in your shoes and and and feeling what you're feeling. And it in my little cave here, sometimes it does get quite isolated, no question about it. Um, and I do think our network's key. You know, I think that that small circle of friends or colleagues that you have out there who are, you know, your team are vital. And and I would say, uh words in your mouth, but I would say for anybody who's starting to set up their own business, work out who that circle of your support is, work out who those friends are that you can lean on, even if it's just to get on the phone and bitch about things for half an hour, it can be quite security to do that, right? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, and I I've been pretty fortunate as well that the husband does tend to work from home a lot. Um, and he was a previous recruiter too, so he knows the world, he knows the pain sometimes, and you know, he's he's in sales now in tech sales, and you know, helps keep me driven when it comes to you know that aspect. So yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good to have somebody that's that's the support right there, and then that's great. So there's a lot of recruitment companies out there, no question about it. And I'm I'm really curious, you know, how how do you and how do you centric separate yourself from the pack? What's your what's your blue ocean strategy to help you stand out? Yeah, yeah. So I I don't believe we're anything like a blue ocean, I would say. Like I think that we're what we're offering in terms of the business model is it's pretty traditional as a recruitment um agency. But I think that there are some really unique differentiators. I mean, for us, we you know, sort of come into a client engagement with the knowledge of internal recruitment. And internal recruitment, working within a company and being privy to all the information about that company, it's very, very different to when you are consulting from the outside. You don't get that insider knowledge. And some people claim that they can, but no, you can't because you know there's going to be like highly confidential stuff, such as financials, planning, all sorts of things that you can't access from outside of a business. And I was privy to that as a head of talent acquisition for Amazon ops in Australia. Uh, you know, I was I had a seat at the table because I was the most senior recruitment resource in the country for that section of Amazon, and I think that we go into our client engagements with that knowledge, we get to ask a lot of sort of intern, like questions that an internal recruiter would ask. Uh, we help our customers sort of work backwards from their goals. And, you know, part of my role as a recruitment leader at Amazon, I had to do the whole six-page narrative. Like I used to kick off my new year with all of my stakeholders, VPs, directors, used to get them all in a room to review what the strategy from a talent acquisition perspective will be for the next year. So I guess I get to share a lot of that knowledge and that approach with my customers, and they really appreciate that. And I think that from a TA perspective, you know, you go into recruitment with the lens that, you know, I am representing the company brand. So therefore, customer experience needs to be so important because you're representing that company. And I think with a lot of our customers, they felt very comfortable with us. I mean, they know that we'll do that for them. That makes so much sense. And and it's you know, I think Amazon does have a somewhat unique approach to recruiting. Um, I actually love their approach to recruiting. I think the rigor there is and the and the structure of it is a is a highly effective structure. I had the good fortune to be a bar raiser for uh quite a few years there as well, and and was deeply involved in the recruiting process. And I think that that it it is a differentiator for that organization that certainly if I was involved in recruiting today, I would be lifting a lot of the models that they use, a lot of the approaches they use, although you know nuanced for the company I'm working with. Um just because they work well. And I'm I'm assuming that you do some of that. I think I'm assuming that some of that expertise that comes out of that environment is being used as you work with other organizations, yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I find myself advising quite a lot when it comes to my customers' recruitment processes. And you know, I think with recruitment, especially as an external recruiter, it is a sales role, right? A lot of the time recruiters want to close a role very quickly so that they get the fee, etc. But for me, like I really just want to drive the best possible long-term business outcome for that customer. And there have been even times where I've told the customer, okay, if we are struggling to find like a strong behavioral alignment, maybe we need to add one more interview. And that is typically a recruiter's like worst nightmare. Um, because they're like, okay, now I need to manage my candidates through another interview stage, the cycle's gonna get longer. But if I know that that's possibly gonna solve the problem, then I will suggest it. And I have. Um, and yes, it makes things a lot trickier for me to sort of control, like every time you add a new stage to the process, it becomes harder for the recruiter to control. But if I believe that that's gonna drive the best outcome for the customer, I will encourage it.

JD: 28:39

Yep.

Kim: 28:39

I I think it makes a lot of sense. And uh having been on the other side of the table as a manager hiring people, you know, having somebody who's thinking long-term, thinking strategically about the hire, it definitely is a differentiate. There's no question about that. Uh, if it's somebody who wants to get the quick win, it doesn't take long before your confidence in that recruiter uh gets eroded. Um, and so I I respect the approach that you're taking. We're in a pretty interesting time right now, you know, in terms of employment and recruiting. Obviously, we've watched a wave after wave after wave of layoffs, particularly in the technology spaces, it's been interesting to see how many people have been, you know, let go uh around the world. Um, the emergence of artificial intelligence and automation and robotics is certainly leading to a lot of uncertainty right now around job security and and future careers. Um, so in your role, given you know what you're doing and also your historical experience for those folks out there who are either unemployed and looking for a role or are feeling like they're at risk and are thinking about you know maybe a career change or something to give them more security, do you have any recommendations or guidance for them? Yeah, I think that with anyone that feels like they're in that position, I would. Really concentrate on two things, and that is building my personal brand. You know, you want to take control of that narrative, you want to be able to communicate, you know, your strengths, your achievements, and you want to be able to do that for yourself, not wait around for you know your manager to you know say what your performance is like. You need to be able to control that personal brand and build that yourself across your industry. And then the second thing is to make sure that you are activating your network. And I had a really good podcast with Andrea Gosling on this, and we approached networking from very, very different angles because we established that she was more of the introverted type, whereas I'm a little bit more extroverted in my approach. And you know, I think that when it comes to activating your network, like that would mean, you know, connecting, attending events, going to conferences where people in your industry will be present. But she also added the other lens that you know, it doesn't have to be all of that outward-facing stuff all the time. It could be those one-to-one interactions, just reaching out to people you've worked with in the past on LinkedIn and just aiming to have those really quality one-to-one interactions. So that's what I would really concentrate on if I was in that position where I felt, you know, I was a bit vulnerable to potential changes coming. I I couldn't be more aligned with you. I did a podcast a little while ago about career uh progression and and the like as well. And I the network's everything. Um, you know, I really do think that's the case. And I one of the cautions that I've given on the podcast, but also in coaching sessions that I've had with folks, is this process of blind applying for roles is the most emotionally debilitating and ineffective approach. Like your network is everything in terms of getting in the door uh for a new opportunity or identifying those opportunities. So I again I couldn't agree more with you, and I think those networking events, those interactions, the keeping in touch with that key set of people, that will pay back in in amazing ways in terms of supporting you and your career. I think it's incredible. You talked about brand as well, and I think that's an interesting conversation. I I've been, again, in some of the conversations I'm having with folks at the moment, I'm I'm seeing a pattern where people don't understand how to deliver their elevator pitch, they don't know how to describe even what they are in terms of their competencies and their experience in a succinct way. And so I think that's I'm gonna kind of go back to you, but I think to me, when I think about brand, that's branding from my perspective, the ability for somebody to say, what do you do, or what's your what are your skill sets, and for you to be able to confidently look somebody in the eye and say, This is what I am. I'm a technical program manager who works with infrastructure, and this is how I've been successful because of whatever, or whatever it happens to be in terms of that skill. I think it's so important. Do you see that as well? Is that your experience? Yeah, I definitely think that everyone should be able to answer that tell me about yourself question, which is typically the first question in an interview type setting. So you need to be able to tell people about, I guess, who you are currently, what you've done in the past, and where you want to go in the future, be able to really clearly articulate that. But I also think that with brand, and I think you've got a very, very strong personal brand, John. You know, whenever I post something with you, uh, you know, there's quite a lot of impressions, and you know, people like you just you just have such a strong personal brand. And I think what also makes a really strong personal brand is when people know what your beliefs and values are as an individual, sometimes we all get a little bit bored about the technical stuff or the job titles. But I think that you know, when you share like what you believe in, like what your values are, and share a little bit about you as a person, like that's what creates a really resonating personal brand. Yeah, I like that. And I think it's a it's a it's something that's often forgotten, is is that kind of exposure in terms of who are you, not only what are you, but who are you, uh, and what values do you represent, and you know, what is what is the the greater parts of you because when somebody's hiring you, they're hiring you for all of those things. Yeah, definitely. And that's why I'm not a believer of you know, some people that get really cranky about uh LinkedIn should be a professional platform. That's all it should be. Like I like to see, I like to learn more about the people that I'm working with. And whenever I post something, like the ones that you know get that better engagement is when I'm sharing something like personal uh or you know, lessons that I've learned through my career or through through running a business and tying it back to sort of personal things versus, yeah, I don't know, hi, I've got a job open, please apply. Well, and I think it's gonna be even more important the more we see AI as well, right? I think the differentiator between uh a human and an AI is that is the fact that you know I'm not an algorithm, I'm much more than that. And I think I agree with you completely. I uh on the LinkedIn thing, I see that too. I see people shutting posts down because they were they were human or personal or whatever, and I I love it. I think it's we need to be human, we need to be more of the dimensions of ourselves than our job title. So I think that's very strong, uh, a great point. If um if I mean not everybody knows how to how to put together their brand or not everybody knows how to kind of put together Elevator, do you have any guidance or recommendations for people who are kind of lost? Yeah, yeah. So I think with uh anyone that is lost, I think that you know you you really should take the time to understand, you know, what you bring to the table as a professional. And I think that like that tell me about yourself question. And I hinted a little bit at the formula behind answering that from what I believe is ideal as a recruiter. I think you really need to be able to clearly articulate like who you are, like what do you do, uh, what have you achieved in the past, and perhaps you know what type of roles you've done in the past to lead up to where you are currently. And then following that, be able to clearly articulate like where you want to go in the future, and if it's in the setting of a job interview, you want to be able to give your interviewer the impression that you know this job that you are interviewing for right now will help you get to where you want to be in the future, so therefore you're really motivated uh to succeed. And I think that when people take the time to really think about what they bring to the table, where they want to go, and be genuinely like motivated because there is that clear connection between this role and where they where they want to go, that's so apparent to an interviewer, and you know yeah, like that could be you know, sort of the make or break of of an interview, like that first impression. I I think that's spot on. I think that's tremendous advice. I I I want to make sure I underline the all the genuine piece of that, and I think one of the things that I've observed, having conducted many interviews over the last few years, is that the words on their own don't carry, the words with authenticity carry. And so be careful not to go and present yourself with something that you don't really believe you are or the or a vision that you actually don't really believe in. Yeah, because even if the interviewer doesn't know they sense it, they sense it. Keep it authentic. Yeah, definitely. That authenticity is so important, and it's really hard to be feel uh like you can bring your authentic self to to work and interviews. I think it is a muscle that you need to work on over time because we are all there to try and you know impress and we want to, you know, unlock these opportunities for ourselves through, you know, pursuing you know that next big role. But yeah, you need to have that authenticity, you need to have that genuine motivation, like that really needs to come through in an interview. Yeah, no, I think that's great, uh, great feedback. So back on Eucentric for a minute. Now I know you know you it's a new business, it's a new organization, and you're building it up, but I also know you've got a vision for Eucentric and a bold vision for Eucentric. I'm curious, like how did you how did you go about the process of coming up with a vision and and can you share a little bit of your of your vision for Eucentric in the future? Yeah, yeah. So I I think in terms of our sort of vision, it's very simple. It's all about unlocking potential and success and whether that be for our customers who are our clients or companies, whatever that may look like for them, versus our candidates, because we see our candidates as our customers too.

JD: 39:52

Right.

Kim: 39:53

And I think the vision for Eucentric, I want it's all about the customer experience at the moment. I am building a delivery team which will be designed to deliver around the clock support eventually for all of our customers. Uh, so we want to break into some industries outside of tech where there could be shift work available, and we want to be able to have a presence for those customers that may need us out of hours for now. Whoever needs me out of hours, they typically get me anyway. But um, you know, can't be doing that myself for my whole life. Um, but yeah, I definitely want to have that in place for the customers. And in terms of our vision, I really want to be an international company. Like, I I love that idea. Like, you know, I have so much love for traveling and and you know, being connected with other parts of the world. So I really would love to go international with Eucentric sooner rather than later. So that's yeah, that's where I really want to go. Well, and given that I know some of your customers are multinationals, I would imagine that that that aligns with their goals as well, right? Yeah, absolutely. One of our very first customers was a startup that was based in Dublin and they were hiring in Australia for the first time. So I was really able to educate them about the Australian market. And at the same time, I had some degree of familiarity with the European market. Uh, so it worked out really nicely, and there've been amazing customers and such advocates. So, yeah, that was that was really awesome. That's fantastic. So I I know you've got a very strong commitment to your family. Um, and I know what it's like, you know, to balance establishing as an entrepreneur a new business from the ground up and kind of balance the family commitments and and the wishes and so forth. So how are you going about that? How are you managing the business and the ramp up of the business with your family? Yeah, so I think even with with the girls, like I said, you know, I've had them, uh had my first daughter at 22 and then the second one at 25. So all through my professional career, I had these two babies in in tow. And I think for for them, like as they started growing up and understanding the world and you know, life a little bit more. I've for me, I've always just been really transparent with them and you know, just letting them know sometimes because I'd be traveling for work, or you know, I'd be like out late, or when I did my MBA, there were so many nights there and nighttime classes and weekend classes. So I missed out on a lot of time with them. But I'll just always tell them that, oh hey, mommy's gonna be traveling for work because Amazon wants me to do something, they want me to do a hiring event in New Zealand to help them close some jobs, okay? To to like, I don't know, just some being really, yeah, just being like, you know, relating at their lay level around what mom is up to. And I think what's what was also really important is just giving them assurance that dad is here, you know, dad will, dad's got you. Like dad will, you know, dad will look after you while mom's not here, dad will read you stories before you go to bed and tuck you in, dad will take you to dance class, dad will take you to wherever you need to be. So I think that you know, it was always a case of just being able to tell them that mom might not be here this week, this night, uh, but you know, dad's got you. It's fine. Well, and uh and kudos for breaking the stereotypes, right? Uh, because I think that's what you're doing. I think you're you're creating that uh that balanced view of of the distribution of responsibilities as parents. Um, you let it slip when I talked to you the other day that your husband is very capable around the house, very competent around the house, a great cook is what I understand. So I think the big question for the ladies listening to this podcast is gonna be how do you find and train a husband like that? Yeah, so uh I think things really changed um when we had our first daughter. Uh, there were just so many things. I was just so tired. There is was no way I was gonna be able to, you know, cook and clean. Um so I guess, you know, forcing him to learn, uh, you know, just being like, I'm not doing it. So it's gonna be undone if if you're gonna wait around for me. Um, but I think that uh for my husband, specifically for him, before he became a recruiter, he was actually an accountant. So he was always a business-minded numbers guy.

JD: 45:17

Right.

Kim: 45:18

And I guess with that mindset, he was calculating in his head that, okay, well, if I don't step up, uh, you know, it's gonna mean that, you know, Kim's gonna have to work part-time or Kim's gonna have to not work, and it's gonna cost this much for the family. And, you know, he is pretty ambitious, uh, as am I, and we have financial goals and you know, like a vision of where we want our life to a vision of what our what we want our life to look like. So yeah, I guess if he doesn't do the things around the house, then is he prepared to not meet those goals and visions that we had for our life? And the answer is no. Yeah, no, I I I love that because if anything, you know, I think what it demonstrates is that one, you've got a shared vision uh as a couple, uh, but two, there's a level of pragmatism there in terms of what's going to be required to achieve that vision. And I again I think it it it it goes a long way to breaking the stereotypes and really um balancing things appropriately in terms of working as a partner, true partnership. Yeah. Towards those goals. And I think that for um I think that for men, um, I think that you know there is a cost there as well for them. Like, you know, it would mean that he would have had to work a lot harder and put a lot of pressure on himself to, you know, get promoted and and do all those things if he wanted to make up for what my salary uh brought to the table uh for the family. And yeah, I guess, you know, he knew that I also really loved the work that I did. And there were times in my career where I took a step back. So I'd take more junior roles and lower paying roles after having my kids, and I was really unhappy with that. I was so bored. I'd look at my colleagues and be like, oh my god, I could do such a better job than you. He worked out very early on that yeah, he needs to step it up too, um, on the home front. I think it's awesome. I really do. Now I know that you also have a shared passion around health um and running and marathons and the like. Um you you amaze me, the pair of you, frankly. But can you share a little bit of your experiences in terms of how you got involved in running and and what you've been up to? Oh yeah. So with uh with my husband and I, we both were never runners until like 2022, 2023. Like we couldn't even run a kilometer at that point. He was always into the gym, so loved to do his strength training, um, but he never really did any cardio or endurance type sports. And with myself, I sort of had like a love-hate relationship with the gym. Like the gym used to bore me quite a bit, and you know, I used to just uh prefer like Zumba classes or something. Um, so um I guess you know, we we were always involved in the the gym and got into hell, like we're into health, but I guess we got into running after meeting a friend of ours in in Luxembourg who was into marathons, and you know, we were just so amazed by uh like what they could do. Um, and yeah, we both started just giving it a go, you know. It's uh it's a thing that you just need to get started with, and just push yourself bit by bit, and then before you know it, you're you know, doing a 7k or a 10k or a 21k or 40k. And in my husband's case, he just did a 100k like in last last weekend. So it's just that progressive sort of build-up, and you just like you just completely amaze yourself with what you could be capable of. Can't imagine 100 Ks. I was like, I I saw it online and I was like, 100Ks, that's insane. It is. I'm definitely not at that level yet, John. I will I will do the Sydney Marathon next year. I've already signed up for that. Um but yeah, yeah, not nothing that extreme. I I I think it's I'm in awe of of what you both do. It's incredible. But I'm curious, you know, so the the focus on fitness, the focus on running and so forth, um does that influence back into the business? Does it influence how you work and in what way? Yeah, yeah. So it definitely does. I think that there are so many things that you learn through endurance sports, and it is, you know, it's just that fundamental concept that you can reach your goal. Like people have demonstrated they could reach those goals, but it all depends on you know, doing bit by bit every single day, and you know, gradually working up the the distance and just making sure that you stick to a plan. And I think that when it came to the business, like I definitely apply that, you know. I know that even for me, I knew that's one of the challenges was going to be the sales and business development aspect after not doing recruiting externally for seven and a half years. So I have like a little reminder on my desktop wallpaper around what my personal KPI should look like every day, and just making sure I stick to that, breaking down that goal into small achievable chunks. Um, yeah, and just knowing that it's possible. And I think that when you do marathons and all the long distance events, you know, people show you all the time what is what is possible, you know, like you're there going, oh, it's because you know, I'm getting old, I can't achieve this, or I've I'm a mom, like you know, I'm like I this is too difficult. And then you go to an event, and then you see people that are much older than you are zooming past you, and then you know, there are you know mums pushing a pram going way faster than you. It's very, very humbling around what humans can actually achieve. So I think that yeah, those are some of those very valuable lessons that you learn uh getting into this type of sport. Yeah, I love the metaphor, which is yeah, I I think it is. I think it's a metaphor for how you think about your business. Um I'm also reminded I climbed Kilimanjaro back in 2013. Um I was I was kind of half the man I am today, but um the the last part of the climb, you you arrive at Stellar Point and then you walk basically 400 meters around to Yuhuru, which is the highest point, but you shuffle and shuffle because you're affected by altitude and so forth, and it's the weirdest, most bizarre thing. But I can never forget the little old lady shuffling past me like she was a race car as I was stumbling my way. I was I was you know, it it's so humbling to see somebody who, you know, who just has that tenacity and that control and so forth to do that. So I love that, I love that metaphor. I love that you've got your KPIs broken down that way, and and that reminder in terms of your mental model, I think that's a great takeaway for anybody to kind of break it down into what really matters, uh, and to to break things down. I'm kind of reminded of the how to how to eat an elephant, you know, one bite after another kind of thing. I think that I I I've always liked that one as well. But yeah, thank you for that. I think that that uh that lays well. Yeah, yeah. I think that beyond anything, just consistency always wins. Like you might not get an instant, like don't rely on instant breakthroughs, like but what you can rely on is consistency, and eventually you'll get to your goal because chances are someone else has achieved what you want to achieve. It's possible. Yep. Yeah, you know it can be done. Yeah, absolutely. And there will be setbacks, but if you keep your eye on that north star and you keep moving towards that north star, you'll get there. I I think that's a great segue to you know, a question I ask all my all my uh guests is what in this journey that you've been on, um, this wonderful journey you've been on, what's been the most significant hurdle and how did you overcome it? Oh, okay, significant hurdle. Um, in terms of my career journey, I think that maybe one of the most significant hurdles for me, or the most sort of challenging periods for me, was yeah, maybe moving back to Australia at the point that we did. I really wanted to stay in Luxembourg. If I could have had more time, I I would have. You know, we had to make a sort of decision at that very critical point around what would be what would be best for us. And, you know, sometimes the thing that you like is outweighed by the benefits of the other thing. Um so um, you know, I think that you'll come across that type of challenge at various points in your career, and we had to we we we ended up moving back a little bit earlier than what I would have liked. Um, but if I if we didn't, you know, I I don't think I could have set up a business in Luxembourg. Like first of all, I wouldn't have I had no clue how to navigate that system. Um, but you know, I think that I had really sort of strong networks in in Australia, and that would have been the ideal place for me to set up. So you just have to make a decision and own it. It's the trade-off, yeah. The trade-offs, yes. You know, a lot of the time people don't want to make trade-offs, they want everything all at once, and yeah, it's a challenging thing in life, but yeah, that was a trade-off we had to make, and you know, I can't look back now. It's yeah, and it sounds like it was a trade-off between the kind of short-term positivity and the long-term value of your decision, right? Yeah, definitely, definitely. Look, we were always gonna have to come back to Australia at one point because family here, roots are here. But um, yeah, yeah, that that was a trade-off we had to make, and it was it was a very challenging period. Yeah, that makes sense. So if you were able to go back to the big the beginning, I guess, of your recruiting journey. So I guess we're going back to the very beginning of that transition, um, with the knowledge that you have today, what what are you telling yourself? Like, what's the wisdom that you'd want to go back with? Yeah, so well, I think that with with recruiting, certainly when I was in my sort of very early career, it wasn't a very supportive industry for women, it was, you know, a bunch of young people a lot of the time, and very being very generalized here, you know, there was a lot, there was a big party sort of culture outside of work, and it was very isolating uh for someone that was a working mom. I think that if I could go back and give my younger self some advice, was you know, proactively seek out those supportive environments. Like you don't have to stay where you are, those supportive environments exist, it's a case of looking for them. And when you are part of those supportive environments and find yourself in a supportive environment, make sure that you advocate for others that were in those in that same position as you. So I'm gonna paraphrase that back because I think I I love that what you've shared. You know, one of the things that I've always recalled from back in my early training days was if you don't like your situation, have the courage to change it.

JD: 58:18

Yeah.

Kim: 58:18

Um, and that's what I'm hearing when you say that is that you were in a situation that really wasn't your it wasn't your jam at all.

JD: 58:25

Uh-huh.

Kim: 58:25

Um, but but you perhaps didn't have the courage to make the change you would that you would now. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I would yeah, you know, take things into my own hands um and give my encourage my younger self to take the courage to put things into her hands. Well, and I think that's great guidance for any stage of life, right? If your situation's not the right situation for you, um don't keep coming back, do something different. Exactly. Yeah, I think it's important. Life's too short. Um who's had the most significant influence on you? Yeah, so I think that um for myself, uh a really significant influence on my career was um an auntie of mine. So unfortunately, we lost her to cancer, so super sad. Um, but you know, she was uh living in the US, she worked in tech, uh, and she had two daughters as well. And when I was sort of very when when my kids were really young, I felt that I was getting a lot of judgment and guilt trips around trying to pursue a career uh when they were just so little, you know, had a lot of pressure on me to stay home and you know, do the whole raising your kids yourself rather than daycare. And that auntie of mine, um, you know, she. was the first person to just be like Kim, your kids will be okay. Like, look at my daughters, they're fine. And you know, just I just really needed to hear that at that point in my career. Yeah, that's great. And uh that reinforcement is so so powerful. Yeah, yeah. And you know, she was not wrong. Like, you know, with my cousins, you know, they've they've grown up into amazing uh young women. And I think that my my daughters are on the same track as as as hers. So yeah, yeah, just really needed to hear that. So she like it was just the smallest thing. But that's what made me go, okay, I'm gonna go for it. Yeah. No, I think that's that's a great share. And I I'm so sorry that you lost it a cancer that that cancer, what can I say? It's affecting so many folks that we love. It sucks. So we touched on artificial intelligence in terms of its impact right now, but I'm curious uh how what's AI in your life, in your business? How are you using it? What are your thoughts? Yeah, yeah. So I I love AI in terms of what it could do for admin and you know all those like really tedious little things uh that's involved in recruitment. The less glamorous stuff so like you know data entry, putting things into the database, making sure that the database is up to date with all the latest information on candidates, etc. We are using some AI tools that are just making things so much easier and you know improving the candidate experience as well. You would have been uh you would have been doing this as well John like when you were interviewing candidates you'd be like typing up and then interviewing them and then just being like this and like typing away um we don't have to do that with note takers you know like you know I'm able to communicate to them the way I'm communicating to you right now. So there are so many things that AI has enabled to just enhance that candidate experience and make sure that you know the the quality of information that we have on all of our candidates is is is really good. So I love that effect on recruiting I haven't really used and I've experimented with many things I haven't really incorporated AI beyond that into the recruitment process because I do like having that more personal engagement with my um candidates and I think that you know with um AI tools like yeah you know you could you could interview candidates to make sure that you've got the right skill set etc but recruitment uncovers a lot more than that you know like they could have the perfect skill set but if you know that this person is not truly motivated for the opportunity then they're gonna be a flight risk in the first sort of six months or you know they don't really demonstrate like the they're not really aligned or demonstrate the values that are important to that team or organization, then you know you're gonna have problems down the line. And I think that you know it really does take that sort of human interaction to uncover that um and also use that as data to help inform the hiring decision like more holistically. So yeah I think that there are lots of AI tools out there that are doing skill checking well and sourcing well but yeah there's always going to be that human element to recruitment that's gonna remain really valuable. Yeah it's it's interesting isn't it um I I use AI this podcast wouldn't exist except for AI it does so much of the work for me it's not funny. And note taking 100% I'm I'm using it all that way. But recruiting is an interesting space you know I if I've if I go back to pre-pandemic most of the interviews that I did were in-person interviews. And you would sit in the room across the table from a person then the pandemic hit and we went completely virtual in our interviews and I felt like I lost so much of the kind of nonverbal communications with candidates during that period um I I honestly think it it degraded my confidence in the interview process it significantly. And then more recently and I know you and I talked about this uh previously is that we're now seeing candidates who in real time during the interview are using AI to to give them the answers to the questions. And now there are technologies emerging to detect the fact that you've got a candidate who's doing that. Yeah some interesting game that's going on right now. Yeah definitely and it just makes things really hard as a recruiter right like I think that yeah you know still there is so much conversation about you know candidates using AI for cover letters and CVs like I think we're well and truly beyond that and I think that that preliminary stage of the interview process um you know is no longer the the main issue of concern. And also like by the way like cover letters why are we still using them anyway? Like we never use them at Amazon and like now they're just gonna be AI generated things that are going to look the same each and every time you request it. So I have no idea why people are still using that. But um yeah I think I think that yeah these next stages of the recruitment process are the ones where we do need to be concerned there have been many times even with a screening call with a recruiter that I could see that people were reading off a prompter of some kind and it was just you know very obvious that you know they'd be not making eye contact with me throughout the whole call and then there'd be like an awkward pause and then all of a sudden the world's best response um just that sounded so artificial and so fabricated. And yeah people are using that in an interview context um and yeah there have been some instances where my clients would use coding assessments and technical assessments and then yeah there would be suspected use of AI because they could track whether a candidate is stepping outside of I guess the I think I think it's like the the window um that's open for the current assessment. And then obviously like they're also monitoring like weird delays um in some of the uh assessments as well uh so yeah I guess yeah there is you know fortunately that you know AI detection software that that people are using but I think what candidates really need to understand is that you know there is a time and place for AI and if the assessment is designed to see how good you are as a coder for instance like your baseline level of coding ability like don't use it like you will be able to use it once you're on the job because a lot of people like to use AI in in coding and make work more efficient but if they're trying to test for your just basic fundamental skills in that assessment like show them what you're truly capable of. I think there's two major takeaways there. One, if you're using covering letters stop I couldn't agree with you more I I've never understood covering letters or I'd certainly in the recent times I don't understand covering letters. I I just throw them out frankly um but um yeah look I mean if if AI gets you the job uh then you're gonna fail in the job. The reality is if if you don't have the skills to the job and you're just faking it through the interview process using AI, it isn't gonna take long for a company that's hired you to work out that you are a fraud and you've faked your way in. So don't do it. Yeah you know by all means if you want to use AI as part of the interview process to show you know how to use AI if that's appropriate for the role then be transparent about it. You know I'm gonna use AI to do that. Fantastic. Great absolutely and I think that you would far rather be the candidate that failed the technical assessment and then get invited to do it again after a year's time rather than be that candidate who's failed the technical assessment because of suspected use of AI and therefore won't be invited in the future. I I I couldn't agree more and and and I you know I made this point in my podcast around career is that like being authentic is is what gets you in the door. You know I I talk about the fact don't come into an interview and tell me you've never had a failed project or you've never made a mistake or a bad decision because I will disregard you immediately either because I don't believe you or because I don't believe that you've had life experiences that prepare you for the role. Failure is an amazing uh learning opportunity always and so the same is true the use of AI is going to make you look like you walk on on water and if you do that I'm not gonna hire you because I don't want somebody who's never fallen over. So I I I think that's great feedback Kim I really do. And I I am concerned I'm I'm seeing more and more of this and I certainly in my latter days at Amazon I had a couple of interviews as a bar raiser where people were definitely uh doing queries in real time. It was the most bizarre thing to watch. Yeah it was it's it's very crazy and I think that you know people are even using these all the way up to a reference check stage um yeah you hear crazy stories in the in the industry and and you know experience some of these crazy things firsthand and I think that it does make things hard as a recruiter um because sometimes your role or certainly I see it my role as you know that trusted advisor. So part of my role is if I suspect anything I'm going to share it with my customer. And if I do that and means that I miss out on placing a candidate then so be it. I'm okay with that because I don't want to deal with you know like a a fall off if they do start and yeah you know just I think a good recruiter would be should be advising just as much as how to make a good hire they should be advising on how to avoid a bad one. 100% that's your brand absolutely that is that is your quality statement right there. Yeah yeah look like sometimes you know you're just like oh damn you know put so much time into this process and I got so far but yeah look you know you would rather yeah you would rather guide your customer to make the right decision a hundred percent and you know I think it just builds trust and yeah you know I think they appreciate whether you know it drives the quick hire or not and they they appreciate the honesty. Yeah that's right it's the integrity um all right I've just just got a few standard questions I'm gonna ask you just to kind of close this out this has been such a great conversation Kim so if you could only read or listen to one book for the rest of your life what book would that be and why yeah so uh my favorite book the one that I've actually read multiple times and listened to multiple times uh as a as an ebook um is The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson and it's all about yeah those incremental little things that you do day to day and just being consistent with that and how it leads to like a compound effect over time yeah like that's been my favorite favorite book by far. I don't know that one that's going on my list. Yeah yeah all right awesome um is there a a ritual a habit or a hack that you've adopted that's had a uh significant impact on your effectiveness yeah so for me I am a night owl so I could work until 1am with no issues uh I know I'm very aware of my body clock and I became aware of it when I was in uni and doing my MBA like my creative hour is roughly about 10 p.m so for me I try and avoid meetings unless really critical before 10am uh and I generally I'm pretty chill in the morning I don't do anything very sort of taxing on my brain in the morning um I start my day by playing fetch with my dogs so so um so that's what I like to do and yeah that's that's the ideal day for me like nothing critical until after 10am I think that's uh that's that sounds like a great way to start the day no question about it and so we started you pretty early on this podcast recording. Yeah a little bit early yeah yeah but you know it it's critical it's um now it's past 10am it's the critical stuff so it's the the podcasting well I think the other thing that that I hear and you say that is you know what your golden hour is and I think for a lot of folks you know that that's key like work like we all have a golden hour we all have a period in our in the day where we we are we are on our game more than others typically and you've worked that out it just happens to be unfortunately late at night. Yeah it's late at night and I think that you know it's really nice to see other people be really honest about this because you know so many people like guilt the night owls into having to start their day earlier. But there's actually a really successful CEO called Jane Lou who runs Shopo which is a uh e-commerce uh store and yeah she's she's the same she loves to start her day pretty late and she's super successful you know she's a working mom as well she's on Shark Tank and she likes to start her days later so I'm just like her and she gives me a lot of comfort that I'm not abnormal. Yeah you're not a weirdo you're actually normal yeah I I think I was that way at one point these days I'm one of those people who's nodding off on front of the television at nine o'clock at night and I'll I put that down to age but you know nine o'clock nine pm is bedtime for me pretty much so I yeah I I think you're right like it just it it really it's like such an individual thing and it is just really empowering once you know what really works for you. Yeah the sweet spot for me is about 6 a.m that's when I'm on oh wow which is kind of nuts but I have that one of those stupid body clocks that wakes me up at 4 30 every morning so great book uh is the five the 5 a.m club the five yeah I think it's 5 a.m club oh yeah yeah really really good book for those people who happen to be nuts like me and wake up at that hour of the day I have a two-part question for you the first part is when you need superpowers when you've got to do something particularly hard or challenging or whatever where do you get your energy or your inspiration yeah I think that uh where do I get my energy from you know I think it's just it comes down to like the purpose piece you know I do a lot of things for my family and if I could tie something back to you know how I could help my family or how I could yeah if there's something in it if I could find that tie around how it will benefit my family like that is definitely what supercharges me. Well I and that I love that because that takes us right back to the first question I asked you which was around your greater purpose right so what I'm hearing you now is that your greater purpose is your anchor in terms of of giving you the energy to get stuff done. Yeah yeah or like if my kids be like can be like oh hey look mum's been able to do this uh so like yeah that's that's always just very simply what what keeps me going. I like that that's good. So let's flip that um what's your kryptonite? What is it that takes the energy away from you and how do you overcome it? Yeah I'm gonna be very honest uh I I don't deal with negativity and criticism and harsh judgment very well. Like it gets to me um and you know I I wish I could say that you know I'm really good at being one of those individuals that filter that sort of stuff out. But yeah it's it's not cool. I don't like it when people are are mean to me and you know really try and make me feel crap. So for be like I guess how I overcome that is that you know I avoid those types of voices like I I can't afford to be around those types of voices. So um I'll just remove myself uh from from the situation. Yep makes sense don't need them don't need those people in your life yeah yeah I'm good with that makes sense so my last question for you is is there a quote uh and it can be from somebody famous or somebody that you know or it can be your own but is there a quote that you kind of fall back on that has an influence on you and why yeah so there's a quote and I'm not sure who wrote it but I just remember seeing it and be like yeah that really resonates with me and it was a simple quote that said comfort zones nothing ever grows there so so yeah I it really resonated with me I think that you know I've been very good to put myself into situations where I'm not entirely comfortable and ended up you know coming out on top. So I really do actively seek those challenges or those challenging situations or that next big thing because I don't want to be comfortable I know that you know I'll I'll stagnate so yeah that's probably one that's really resonated with me. I've I've not heard that quote before and I and I immediately love it. It ties right back into a growth mindset. Yeah I think it it ties beautifully into that notion that um if if you want to you know grow your your ring of capabilities or your field of capabilities you've got to go outside of that space and it is uncomfortable it's deliberately uncomfortable it's a reality uh to be to be in that space but all you're doing is uh is you're growing is your you're building your competencies in Sabal definitely and I think we we mentioned it in our last chat just around like risk taking and I think that you know quotes like that just you know really frame that you know taking risks stepping out of your comfort zone like that's where that's how that's the only way to get better at something you know and I I think I've I've always kind of believed that but I think going back to the Amazon culture you know uh it it is so built on the notion that the greatest growth comes out of failure that that that we're not afraid to fail we're afraid of failing and not learning something or afraid of making the same mistakes twice we don't want to do that but there that there's no there's no reason to have an inherent fear of failure provided you can turn that into an expansion of skills or a or a learning opportunity. Yeah definitely definitely and I think that you know what I learned in my time at Amazon especially during the pandemic where everything was just so uncertain and I'm sure you were in many similar situations like you might as well make a decision and own it and see where it takes you rather than delaying a decision which is not going to get you anywhere. It's just gonna potentially even worsen the situation. Totally again I you know and I do recall that period where basically the rules were changing daily like every morning we'd wake up and there was a new set of guidelines and whatever we were making up as we went and so you you just have to be ready to do things that might or might not work and and then work your way through that no question about it. Again going back to my coaching foundation we always used to say you know it um if you don't know what to do do something. Yeah like do something and it will either be the wrong thing or it'll be the right thing it'll either move you forward or it'll give you learning but do something. Again I think that's really cool. Look this has been such a great conversation Kim I'm so glad you you agreed to come on. So many insights that you've shared I'm excited I'm so excited what you're doing with Eucentric I think it's fantastic. I will include uh links to Eucentric uh as well as your LinkedIn contact details in the notes for the show um folks if you're listening to this show and you're interested or you need a recruiting organization um by all means reach out to Kim I know that she's got so much experience to share with you um but this has been really tremendous and and I really appreciate you making the time to talk to me. Oh thank you so much for having me on your show John it's such an honor and yeah look it's always amazing to speak with you like I always learn so much from you every single time we we chat and yeah hopefully you know you've leave this conversation knowing a little bit more about me too so yeah I do we have to go to karaoke now there's no choice we have to do I think I think so I think we will have to for sure I can guarantee I'm not going running with you but I think karaoke could be in that's a good winner. Yeah yeah definitely I'm down for sure. Done all right so listeners thanks again for joining in uh I really appreciate the support for the podcast uh whatever you're doing I hope you're living your full life and and living it to the max and please be good to each other see you soon all right see you all