JD's Journal

Albert Bramante: Overcoming Self-Sabotage - Lessons from Broadway to Business

• John 'jd' Dwyer • Season 2 • Episode 11

Share episode

Albert Bramante sits at a fascinating intersection of psychology, performing arts, and innovation. With 20 years of experience coaching Broadway stars, teaching psychology, and helping people overcome limiting beliefs, he brings unique insights into how we sabotage our own success.

At the heart of our conversation is a profound exploration of why our brains resist the very achievements we claim to want. Albert explains how fear of success can be more paralyzing than fear of failure—because success demands identity change, increased responsibility, and shifted relationships. When you succeed, you become someone new, and that terrifies the part of your brain designed to maintain stability.

The revelation that hit me hardest was about impostor syndrome. Albert shares stories of A-list actors questioning their performances despite their fame and accolades. Rather than viewing these feelings as weaknesses to overcome, he suggests they're natural human experiences that keep us humble and growing. We don't eliminate impostor syndrome; we learn to work with it.

Drawing from his doctoral research, Albert unpacks the personality factors that contribute to self-sabotage: high neuroticism combined with low conscientiousness creates the perfect storm for undermining our own efforts. His book "Rise Above the Script" provides practical strategies for recognizing and rewriting these self-limiting narratives.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Albert's integration of cognitive behavioral techniques with NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming). He demonstrates how shifting perspective—literally seeing situations from different viewpoints—can break the grip of negative self-talk. The simple act of questioning "According to whom?" when we tell ourselves "I'm not good enough" can open entirely new possibilities.

Whether you're pursuing creative ambitions, navigating career transitions, or simply trying to understand why you keep hitting the same ceiling, this episode offers both the psychological framework and practical tools to break through. As Albert reminds us, "There's no such thing as rejection, only a simple reminder that your services are not needed today."

Resources from this episode:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertbramante/

https://linktr.ee/albertbramante

https://bramanteartists.com/

https://albertbramante.com/

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0CY1XJMKM

JD:

Hi listeners and welcome back to the JD's Journal podcast. As always, it's fantastic to have you here. I have a very interesting guest on this episode, I've got to say this gentleman from New York has a lot going on. I would say he lives in the intersection of art, psychology and innovation. He's got 20 years experience coaching Broadway stars to the stage, guiding students in psychology in the classroom and then coaching people you know around fear, imposter syndrome, self-sabotage and those limiting beliefs that we have as the CEO of Romante Artists. They're helping performers to plan their career paths that are sustainable and powerful and purposeful.

JD:

In the classroom they're inspiring college students through their courses in psychology and human development. In the coaching rooms they're bringing kind of innovative techniques and, like hypnosis and NLP, which I know we're going to talk about, to unlock kind of clarity and confidence. And in the digital space, which I know we're also going to have a great conversation about, they're teaching the creatives and the educators how to embrace and harness artificial intelligence to basically stay ahead of the curve. And I think I've never thought about the intersection of the performing arts and AI in this way. So I'm fascinated to hear what we're going to hear today. Anyway, albert Bramante, welcome. I hope I introduced you appropriately. By all means, let me know if there's anything you'd like to change the introduction or add or delete.

Albert:

Thank you, that was great. That was a wonderful introduction. Really happy to be here, john, and I appreciate the invite.

JD:

Well, I'm glad you're joining us. So, look, I always start my episodes. I think it's fascinating to learn what you do, and we'll talk much more about that. I think there's a lot. As I said, there's a lot going on, but I'm always curious. You know, when you get up in the morning and you're inspired to go forward in your day, what's your greater purpose? You know, why is Albert Bramante on this planet and what's the legacy that you want to leave behind you?

Albert:

Well, I like to think you know that I was put here to kind of help people maximize and reach their full potential and realize gifts that they have within themselves. And that's what I kind of really pride myself in doing and help and just, first of all, bringing good people together and also just really, uh, helping people reach their you know 100, their maximum potential, where where they can really shine. And I think, if you really want to, if I want to really break it down, I I kind of believe my mission is to connect people together and connect, sometimes, good people together. So that's sort of like what really brings me joy and mission is it brings people together.

JD:

I love that. Yeah, I see myself as a connector as well, so it's very relatable from that perspective. I'm curious was there a moment, an event, was there something significant that brought the clarity for you in terms of your purpose?

Albert:

Well, I think, just over time, ever since I was a kid, I always had an interest in people and just talking to people and having deep conversations. And, you know, sometimes it's interesting because I was a little ahead of my years, when I was growing up as a teenager and kid, that I would have deep conversations, probably a little bit earlier than everyone thought I should be. But that was just who I am and I still am to this day. So I really consider myself a very deep and prospective thinker and I really like having important and good conversations.

Albert:

I I think you know one of the things that really was a catalyst for, like when I was in high school uh, I started reading a lot I read how to win friends and influence people, which was a game changer for me because I really felt it was all about how to connect with people and just really the value of people. So that was sort of like what I really started, I guess, brought it to my awareness to help people, brought it to my awareness and I'm supposed to help people. And I also read a primer which I didn't know at the time but today would be considered a primer on cognitive behavioral therapy, which is Feeling Good, by David Burns, a classic, classic text, and this is the early 90s, so it's a classic now, and it was something that really kind of brought my interest into therapy and to change work. At that time I didn't know what it was, you know, but I just knew I wanted to change people and get people sort of out of thinking, you know, in some sort of distorted thinking patterns. So then went to college. Now I always had a creative side to me, like working with actors. You know I took some theater classes. I was in a drama club, I was in a couple. You know I used to sometimes help set the plays up at the college, do some of the tech work, and it was really such a great way just to be around actors. I felt so at home when I was with actors. So I think that that was part of, like you know, in a sense of where I where it started and then went to grad school, and one of the defining moments to me was during my last semester of my master's degree education.

Albert:

I ended up at an internship at a New York City talk show, which is like my first real professional show business, like real show business opportunity At least the opportunity. I mean I was behind the scenes, but it was my first like in the business, you could say my first exposure to the business and it was very interesting, it was very eye-opening and it was something that, even though I didn't want to work in talk shows ever again, it was definitely something that I'm grateful for, totally grateful for, because it started me on this journey and I happen to take I'm a big advocate of taking risks and, even if it seems outlandish, because here's how this landed when I was watching this talk show that I interned with and I happened to go on their website my big debuter at the time and there was a form where you can interact with the show and interact with the therapists on the show and I just said, hey, I'm so-and-so, I'd like to be an intern, I like to get involved. I didn't say really intern, I said I like to get involved in the show. I'm going for a graduate degree in counsel. You know, at that time was managing family therapy. I would love to, you know, be a part of and help you out and be part of this.

Albert:

Now I knew even when I, when I hit send, I was like there's no way that they probably get thousands of requests like this. I'm just going to forget that I ever did that and it took I didn't really hear anything for two months. So, you know, this time I forgot I sent it and I just happened to right before class. You know, I was going to a night school, I was finishing up my second year of my master's, so all classes were at night. And right before class began I said you know, I'm going to just check my email just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Albert:

And I see an email that says you know, it was a RE colon. You know your website comment. Okay, didn't know if it was spam. I said, you know, let me click open to that. And I start reading and I see my message on top you know, let me click open to that and I start reading and I see my message on top, you know, which is that I want to get involved. I'm thinking, okay, yeah, I'm still thinking I'm reading a form letter and at the bottom it was from the show staff, you know, and the person who I wrote to said where are you located? Because I'm looking for an intern in this break. And I said I'm looking for an intern in this break and I said I'm from the.

Albert:

You know New Jersey is right near um like a half hour from the studio by train. So she called me up the next day and said you know, had me come down there. It was surreal. I felt I was dreaming it.

JD:

Yeah.

Albert:

And next thing, you know, I did the internship for three months, the most exciting internship I think that all my other peers had, but it was still, you know, an eye-opening experience. So after that, you know, because the show kind of was on its last leg, so obviously I didn't get the job or anything else beyond that, which I'm grateful for, because, again, I don't think I could have worked in that type of environment. Ethically, I'll just leave it at that. There were a lot of concerns that I had. But you know, looking back in hindsight, it's not a show to really help people, it's a show for ratings. So, you know, my whole ethics concern, really at no point. So I said, okay, this is the same year, unfortunately, that New York City had 9-11, september 11th attacks, which were obviously tragic and horrific. But the people that the person that I reported to at this talk show I'd said called me up and said I can use your help. I were doing, you know, this organization, we have those actors, we have these directors and other counselors. We can use your help on the ground. So I spent a couple of months doing that. We got then. That led me to a couple of jobs doing that. That led me to a couple of jobs. American Red Cross went into the LifeNet all the different counselors. Then, after that position ended, this is now 2003,. I then get hired to teach.

Albert:

Now, throughout this time I was also because I got bit with the acting bug, as they would call it, and I started acting. And you know, I was in a couple of films, I was in a couple commercials and I met some great people. It wasn't really for me, but I met so many great people and I really liked being around these people and it kind of brought me back to those memories when I was in high school and college where I was having such a great time with these people. So I remember sitting down for a little while, kind of like meditating and reflecting how can I still be relevant in this space, not being an actor, but still working with actors? So I did some film festival work and went to production route. That wasn't really for me, but I started. I was like I just like actors, what? So I decided you know what, I'm just gonna be, you know I, I'm going to be a representative for actors. And so there I was. So um, and you know the rest is going to history.

Albert:

I started my first company in 2004,. You know, and I've been, you know, doing it ever, ever since, and at that time I yeah, I think what I really liked about what I do now is I connect people, and that's what I really like about what I do now is I connect people. That's what I do. And so that goes back to my first love is just bringing people together and connecting them.

Albert:

So then, when I started my PhD program, when it came time to figure out my primary research or my direct specialization, the one thing I kept noticing with students and with actors was self-sabotage, self-doubt, fear, success, imposter syndrome, yep, and at that time I I don't think those concepts are really in the mainstream yet, you know so it was mainly, it was a self-sabotage. It was really your self-handicapping. Why were these actors like? So, you know, engaging in self-defeating behavior. And so that's what I decided to specialize my phd in, even though I was going for bhc in psychology. So I was going to specialize in self-sabotage, especially for and for actors, and so I did a monumental research project and that got me started, and then I, you know, finished my PhD in 2015 and then, several years later, I turned into my book Rise Above the Script yep, yep, I.

JD:

I love the the journey there. Thank you for sharing that. I, um is exactly what I was looking for and I I think there's a couple of things there that I want to make sure I call out and acknowledge. Uh, so, dal karnini karnigi's book um how to influence and influence people. For anybody that hasn't read that book, it's um gosh. I think it dates back to the late 30s, if I recall.

Albert:

Yeah, it was definitely way before 1950.

JD:

Yeah it is a timeless book. In fact, the leadership program I put together in my last role it was one of the books in the series that I asked people to read. It's a tremendous book. So if you're looking for a book on working with people, connecting with people and so forth, I've got to recommend that. As you describe your journey, albert, I guess I'm seeing a couple of things. One is that you have a bunch of lived experiences that are very relevant to what you do today. Because of the different experiences that you've had yourself, you have a strong capability to kind of walk in the moccasins of the people that you're working with, and I think that's very powerful in a supporting and a coaching role. There's no question about that. Equally, I talk about icky guy on this podcast quite a lot, and it seems to me that you found your icky guy yeah, I think so.

Albert:

I mean, and especially, it wasn't really me until the past couple of years that it was like okay, this is like my area, you know, of helping people overcome self-imposed limitations, in a sense, and really creating, helping them create a better life.

JD:

So, for the listeners who aren't familiar with the term Ikigai, the concept is that you know what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs and what you can get paid for. If you can get the intersection of those four things, that is your purpose, that is your. It's a Japanese term, ikigai, and I think it's incredibly powerful, but it sounds like that's kind of where you are today In terms of your career today, like the path that you've described, terms of your, your career today, like the path that you've described. So you know, a psychology professor, a talent agent, a coach. Do you have a favorite role? Is there a place that you prefer to spend your time?

Albert:

I the one thing I would, I would probably say, just talk communicating, communicating with people. I think you know, and it's not I like that all equally because you know, as a coach I'm, you know, helping people overcome limitations. As an agent, I'm working on getting gigs and connecting those, you know, working and connecting those actors, communicating with the actors. And when I'm teaching, I'm obviously in constant communication. So I think the biggest common denominator with all three is I get to interact with people all day long and that's what I love.

JD:

No, that makes sense and I love that In terms of self-sabotage, and I see this in the corporate world as well. Of course it's different, but I still see the same behavior. You've done the study on it far more than I've even looked at it. Why. Why do people do this? What's the underlying thing that drives people to do this?

Albert:

well, I I'm the the reality of it. There's not, there's not just one reason, there's multiple reasons. And I kind of think, like, even though I did the doctoral dissertation and a monumental research, the reality is it kind of just really just started. You know, I could take it, I'm going to just started down that rabbit hole. So, because when I did the study, the reason why it was so approved and, I think, really welcomed in the PhD space was because it was so, because it was the first time anybody's really ever looked at that, especially for actors.

Albert:

But there's a couple of different reasons and I can tell you that the one thing is fear, and our brain and our nervous system is really designed to do one thing and that's protect us Right, and that's to protect us from everything, whether it be any danger, whether it's real or perceived, our brain does an amazing job at protecting us from danger and I'm thankful for that because that's what helped keep us survive. We go back, you know, from our caveman days to a primal days when we were primates. That's what kept us alive. Was that fear, that fight or flight mode? You know, now, in today's age, we may not necessarily have those specific risks or predators or, you know, threats. However, our brain still responds the same way to fear, which is protection, avoiding danger and, you know, creates anxiety response in us, which is activating really our sympathetic nervous system. Which is activating really our sympathetic nervous system. So, in reality, it's a protective mechanism. You could really say, at the end of the day, self-sabotage. It should protect us. The only thing is, even though it's doing itself or protecting us, it's a different thing from helping us move forward and be productive or successful.

Albert:

It's a different thing from helping us move forward and be productive and successful, because sometimes it can be overprotective, the brain. It can be like an overprotective parent, if you, you know, especially with parents, you know there is a such thing as when you're overprotective, how it can be detrimental to kids. Well, the same thing goes for our brain. If it's overprotective, it can be detrimental, so it sometimes will just it's overprotective, it can be detrimental, so so it can. It sometimes will just it'll. It's there, protect us, and what that could be protected us from could be a whole host of things.

Albert:

It could be, again, fear of failure, you know, looking bad. What. What better way to not have to look bad is by not doing anything at all. Great, great, great way to do that. Then there's also another fear that's not really talked about a lot this fear of success, because a lot of people don't realize that that's taking place, because nobody really walks around saying having success is the top of their fears. Everybody wants that. We're all chasing success as a society and today's economy Mostly everybody, even listening to pot is we're all chasing success.

JD:

I love that you went there because I hear a lot to the fear of success and I wonder is it a fear of the responsibility that comes with success? Is that the concern?

Albert:

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Absolutely, it's not so much the success itself, it's the responsibility and the consequences. Now, when we hear the word consequences, we often think okay, negative, but every action we do is a consequence.

JD:

Right.

Albert:

I post on social media, I may get some likes and some new followers or new comments. That's a consequence Hopefully it goes in my favor, but it's a consequence. So very often, often, sometimes, being really successful might mean changing your life, changing identity, especially if you come from the nlp framework about identity, and we work really hard to keep it, maintain our identity, and even if it's an identity of, like a poor or struggling person, it's like we're gonna hold on to that, you know. Hold on to being poor, hold on to being deficient, hold on to being whatever it is we have, and so we don't want to avoid that, you know. We want to avoid that, that fear of having to let go of an identity and adopt a new one, which is really scary. It's like uncharted water.

Albert:

And again, the consequence is now that could mean extra work, extra responsibility, extra scrutiny, and I've talked about this in a chapter in my book and it's the relationships, too that can sometimes be affected in your life.

Albert:

Because for two reasons.

Albert:

Number one, you might, if you, depending on whatever it is you're setting out to do, being successful, maybe more time away from home, yep, more time away from your family, more time away from your loved ones, your city of another, your kids, whatever that which means that there's going to be added pressure to you, to, you know, stay more at home. And why did you have to take that position and be away from the family and that guilt trip that sometimes your relatives will put on you? And also, I know a lot of people may not want to admit this or be ready to admit it, but there are, you know, if you have, if we're around, people that are insecure with themselves. They're not going to be too thrilled. Lot of people are a little unpleasantly shocked with is sometimes the opposition that they get from their family and their friends when they do get some success or at least on the road to success.

Albert:

I was watching an interview from a thing well-known again, whether you believe in this or not, but it was a TV psychic medium and he landed his syndicated talk show and what he was saying during the interview that when he landed the show a lot of the so-called friends and family were not supportive and kind of turned their back on him. Now people hearing that for the first time. I'd be really shocked to hear that.

JD:

I maybe that's a cynic in me I wasn't shocked to hear that well, certainly, as an australian, I'm not shocked to hear that at all, albert. I mean mean, the reality is that this Australian culture where I am, you know tall poppy syndrome is a very real thing. You know, we don't like it when people get too far above the pack right, and so there is a tendency to bring down people who have been incredibly successful at times, and so I can absolutely see why that would be intimidating for somebody to feel like. You know, if they're going to stand out from the, from the crowd, are they going to be the, the? Are they going to be seen differently by their friends?

Albert:

Yeah, yeah. Or sometimes I hear this a lot oh, you know, he or she became a sellout or a, a seal or whatever it is. Because it's projection, it's jealousy, it's whatever it is, it's envy. And you know we're we're social beings. So one thing about us is, even we don't we don't want to admit it we need people, we need companionship, we need relationships. So if that can be, if that's going to be threatened, then again, subconscious, we're going to hold on really tight. So you have identity, you have responsibility and relationships. Those three combined are really what lead to the fear of success so some of those things are quite legitimate, right?

JD:

I mean, when you think about. You talked about time away from family and travel, and I've just come from a career recently where that was very much. My reality was on planes every few weeks and so forth so there is a personal sacrifice that does go with that. I'm curious how do you guide somebody that's within your sphere in terms of balancing that?

Albert:

Well, the first thing is really first acknowledging it. You know that this is a thing that's happening and that's normalizing. It's okay to feel this way. And then coming up with some type of compromise, you know, having a talk with their family, whether it be their partner or their kids and their whatever they're they're spending time with and kind of maybe come up with a compromise like, okay, you know, maybe one, you know the you may have to do this amount of time, this amount of time, how can we still stay involved and together?

Albert:

So maybe that might mean more quality time when, during downtime, that might mean checking in daily with video calls and skype and all that, and or whatsapp or whatever it is now with the family and involving them, because I think the biggest thing is when they're. They're away a lot of times and they're not communicating at all with their family. So I think, okay, let's try to get some constant communication in there and therefore, the people that are left you know I don't want to say left behind, but left behind while you go, while you travel will not know, you know, will not ever come to the conclusion you're abandoning them or that you're even have that perceived notion that it's attack and they do what you can to help, and so that's the one thing, at least for the time away.

Albert:

That's one way we can do with it. I don't know if there's anything you could personally do if you have again the people that are around you that aren't going to be supportive. I think the only thing I can try and suggest is, as much as you can, seek out people who will support you and understand that if they don't support you, you know your friend, you know your loved ones. That's not personal, it's not you, it's not a failure, it's not like you're becoming this or and not your fault, and then you wait, it's unfortunate. So I empathize and say I know this is not easy to experience, but this is not your fault, right? Yep, because a lot of times again you'll start to think, well, am I really being a sellout here? And let me the right? And you start to doubt that maybe I'm right, the and you start to doubt that Maybe I'm right. They're right.

Albert:

And you start to pull away from what you really are destined to do and all you can do is just reassure the family. Look, I'm not growing out of you. I'm maybe doing this, I may be out of town for a while or maybe periods of time, but I don't feel myself better than you and you can't really change how they're going to feel. But you can do your best to reassure them and then to work with the expectations. I mean, the only thing to really do is to acknowledge again that, okay, this may be scary, but here's what it here, and here's what it, and here's what I'll do. When this happens, when I have more responsibility, either I'll hire a VA or hire someone to help me organize everything. I'll put a system together. So be prepared. So there are things that we can do. So be prepared. So there are things that we can do, and I think it's okay and it's okay to grow out of an identity Again that's scary, you're not hurting other people.

Albert:

if you grow out of an identity, it's okay. You can do this.

JD:

Yeah, totally. I agree, we hate change, though. I mean, the reality is that humans, we don't like it. No, yeah, we don't like change.

Albert:

Well, I, mean it's scary. I mean that's the biggest thing. It's unknown and it's scary. And as human beings, we like to know things or we like to think we're in control. That's why and I'm not knocking it, but this is part of the reason why we believe in superstition or why we believe in like coincidences or psychic phenomena, because it's our brain's way of trying to make control of the uncontrollable. You know, we're trying to get that illusion of control.

JD:

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure that's one of the concerns right, I'm sure that's one of the concerns. Is that if I become Hugh Jackman, for goodness sake, I'm going to lose control of my life. Is that an underlying concern?

Albert:

Part of it. I'm losing control of my relationship. I'm losing control of money. People are going to look at me differently. People are going to think of me and am I good enough to be Hugh Jackman? That's going to be another thing too the imposter syndrome. Am I good enough to do that? That's probably the biggest one when people explode. And I enough to do that? That's probably the biggest one when people explode. I think that's part of where that tall poppy syndrome comes into. Even self-imposed, it's like do I really belong here? Whether it's becoming an actor getting the brick brick or landing a mega promotion to a company where you're either the vice president or even co-CEO. What, how did that happen?

JD:

yeah, I talked about, uh, imposter syndrome on episode six of this podcast and again in my.

JD:

In my world, um, it plays a significant part and one of the things that that really struck me about imposter syndrome, um, back from the days I thought it was only my problem to when I realized that everybody pretty much everybody I was working with had it at some point in time.

JD:

What interests me about imposter syndrome was that some of the most, you know, visibly successful and outwardly confident and almost, you know, arrogant people that I was working with. As I worked closely with them, I observed that they were dealing with significant imposter syndrome and there was a facade that they were establishing to kind of hide that as senior executives they were actually working with it in terms of managing it. But so it struck me that it's hidden often, and then I did an episode a few weeks ago. We talked about um suicide, particularly men in in suicide, and the same thing came through is that we're very good at shielding, we're very good at hiding, and often times when people have um have done radical things, it's come as a complete surprise. Everybody around them that they were dealing with, you know, emotional issues or concerns Is that true in your world as well, albert, do you see?

Albert:

that Absolutely, and especially when it comes like actors and even big actors and A-list actors. I had one of my clients who was working on a film with a major A-list actor and she was in the scene with this actor and the actor kept beating himself up after the take was over, like, did I do it? I think I need to do that again and I'm even asking my client who was in do you think I did? Okay? And at first she was taken back. She's like you know, I just not only was an A-list actor, was an A-list actor and she kind of was a big fan of you know cause she watched a lot of his movies and she was very shocked that how humble it was. And that doesn't surprise me, yeah, at all. You know that it it's. You know that it's. You know, even at the top people are, and even in the acting world are, kind of doubting themselves Did I do a good take? Was that good enough? And you know, this time he already won a couple awards. He was, you know, on so many movie sets as a lead. You would think that he would have the confidence, but no, he, he was. You know, did I do the right thing?

Albert:

Now my view of imposter syndrome again, it's everybody has it, there's no like I'm actually very skeptical when somebody tells me they don't have they're riding boss syndrome. Yeah, no, I don't, that's not, you're not human, I, I was gonna say so. I I think we all have it to a degree and I'm not even sure it's about getting rid of it. I think it's more about working with it, because it's what keeps us humble, what keeps us grounded. That's how I look at it.

Albert:

Now other people have different views of it, but I look at it like it keeps us grounded and instead of working. You know, obviously we don't want it to overpower us at the same time. Or you know, obviously we don't want it to overpower us at the same time or let it take over our lives. The imposter syndrome about that whole, you know, like where we just completely not do anything and become paralyzed by it, but at the same time it can also guide us into being humble and knowing what our limitations are and when it is to get coaching and when to seek help and how to seek help for it. So I I'm not sure imposter syndrome again is something that we want to get rid of completely.

JD:

I I again agree this is grounded no, I agree with you, albert, on that. In fact and I'm going to use my favorite word, which is curiosity I I, I think you know, the more I've come to terms with imposter syndrome and the more I've worked with my own clients, the thing I've learned now is to be curious. You know why do I have that thought Like what's going on for me right now, that I'm feeling that way, and then to use that as an empowering thing more than a negative thing? I think it's useful. The mind tapping on the shoulder and giving you that message sometimes is a great opportunity to stop and kind of think about what's going on for you right now and then deal with it.

Albert:

The right way? Yeah, absolutely so. But yeah, I think that's the major thing there. But it's very true, especially with like A-list actors and one thing that I think kind of the world got notice of this, like when we saw the tragic suicide of robin williams yes how everyone realized how human these actors are.

Albert:

Yes, and you know well one thing that I and I hear this a lot from some of the actors is they may have a lot of people around them trying to take their picture, want to be around them, want to be their friend, but they're doing it because of who they can play on TV. A lot of these actors will even say and I've heard this just several times before saying why they don't like this, even though you would think, okay, you like the fandom admiration they said they don't like it because it's not. They feel it's not real, right, it's not genuine. It's only because of the prestige. And people are doing it to kind of make themselves feel good, like, oh, I'm taking a picture with a celebrity yeah, yeah, not. I'm taking a picture with I celebrity yeah, yeah, not. I'm taking a picture with I don't want to use Robin Williams.

Albert:

People are like, oh, it's Robin Williams, yay, I want to be around, but it's only because of the celebrity of Robin Williams, right, you know, and it's not the person, the human being, the man by the name of Robin Williams. You know, strip him away from everything that he's done. He's just a man with everyday emotions and most of. If he was just a Robin Williams janitor, he wouldn't have anybody wanting to be around him. People would probably find him obnoxious and weird. You know this obnoxious guy with his voices, you know, and but because he's you know notoriety, it's now such a major thing and this is why, like one of the things I even find, like what a-list actors they like to keep social circles very small yes, understandably, for that reason.

JD:

That's why most of the time.

Albert:

most of the biggest stars are very private people, and it's not that they're rude, you know, and I'll hear this so-and-so is rude. I'm like, no, they don't want to be swarmed If they want to go to dinner with their family. They want to just enjoy a night out with their family. They don't want to be swarmed with fake people that just want to be around them for another writing.

JD:

so like anybody. I think that would be a very normal thing to just want to be a normal, a normal person who can be living their life in that sense. Yeah, I think, I think this it's interesting to see, uh, some performers when they're on versus when they're off.

JD:

You know, as in they're off duty, um, they're very, very different um, and I, and I've got to say, uh, there's lots of bad things about social media, but one of the fun things that I've seen with social media is some of those performers who do a tremendous job of being very human and very normal um on their social media feeds as opposed to when they're performing. I think some some are better than others, but it is interesting to see that kind of contrast in terms of what they are in their normal life. Similarly, going back to you know the work that you do. I know from my own experience, both as a performer, but somebody who's worked with performers in the community theatre space, not professionally, but also with a daughter who's in the professional musical theater space.

JD:

I know rejections a common, you know thing, it's a normal thing, and I've heard musical theater theater people say that it's about a 64 to 1, 64 auditions for one, for one gig, whatever the number is. But it's large, the volume is large and often it has nothing to do with your talent, has to do with how you right, how you match the other cast members and how you fit the role. But I've got to think in your world, helping people cope with this constant experience of audition without a callback or audition without a without a contract has got to be a burden. So what's your, what's your strategy? What's worked most successfully in terms of reframing that?

Albert:

well, I? I think the first thing is to take the person personal element out of it. It's not personal, it's it's business and it's not yeah, I don't even know if I would say it's rejection, even though it may feel like it is it's not because it's just you didn't get the job. It's not. I'm not rejecting, you know, if I'm, if I'm casting a movie or a show and I don't hire you, it's not because I don't. You know, I'm not sitting there saying that's it, you're done. I'm saying here's the actor that kind of matches the character a little bit better, because there's maybe that look their style. I can only hire one person for a role. I can only do that. So it's not personal. So the biggest thing I would say is not to take it personally. You know now that doesn't make it any easier sometimes, but that's the truth If you don't take it personally. So there's really no such thing as rejection. It's just that your acting services are not needed today for this role, for this project. And I think if you take the personal factor out of it, first of all it lowers the stakes of the audition and now it's still serious when you go in there. Yes, you should still be fully prepared and fully immersed and fully ready to go. But there's no need to be terrified or nervous when you go in there.

Albert:

The one thing I see with a lot of successful actors who book more auditions and, yes, it has to do with some of their talent but another factor is their attitude, how they walk in there and how they show up. And if you show up, instead of saying I need to make a good impression, I hope they like me, I hope they like me, show up as a way to say, hey, I'm trained, I'm prepared, I'm going to show you what I can do, I'm going to show you how I'm going to bring the work to life. And these two minutes and then the rest of the day I'm going to. When I walk out of here or in this thing, it could be self-tape. When I hit the stop button and send off the tape, it's over, it's out of my hands, I'm no longer concerned anymore.

Albert:

So if you look at it, instead of saying okay, I'm being judged and being judged, what's the state? And say, okay, I worked hard, I trained, I went to school, I know what I'm hard, I trained, I went to school, I know what I'm doing. I'm going to use this two minutes time to showcase what I can do and if I don't get the role, at least I know I did my best and I can move on. And I find that when you adopt that mindset of still working hard but at the same time not putting so much stakes into whether you're going to get the role or not, that will make a huge difference in your booking ratio. Now, it's still going to be more no's than yes's, but I can guarantee you there'll be more yes's than you would have received had you been stressed out, because the biggest mistake I see a lot of actors make is overthinking.

Albert:

And when I even sometimes would see you know actors perform or perform a scene a lot of times I I the advice that I give them is like get out of your head, because part of being a good actor is being able to read and respond to your scene partner just like a normal conversation would be, and to make it so organic. It is challenging. It's why it's a lot of training. You have to have a lot of training to be an actor Because even though you've read the script maybe a thousand times and rehearsed the scene hundreds of times, you have to present it as if you're saying the lines for the first time and hearing what the other person is saying for the first time.

Albert:

Right, but that means you're gonna be fully present, because a lot of times what actors do? They'll say their line and then in their head they're worried about okay, I better make sure I know the mark to say my next line. And now the other your c partner is is saying their line and they're thinking the same thing when you're saying the line and you're thinking, as an audience member, this. I don't believe this.

Albert:

I don't believe the interaction. This is phony. This isn't working. So the truth of the matter is, I think if you have the lowered expectations, with the low stakes, what I was saying earlier and have the mindset I'm showing what I can do, you'll be more present and give a much better performance. Yeah, again, you're not going to book every job. That's not possible.

Albert:

A good audition is really only 30% to 40 percent of the reason why you get the job. The other 60 percent is outside. Outside 60 70 percent is out of your control. But you can maximize the 30 40 percent to the best of your ability. When you get in there, fully be present, use your training, get in and get out and it's all. You'll really improve.

Albert:

When you do that, your audition skills will improve and so will your booking ratio. Or, even if you don't book right away, you'll get repeats because in the industry as big as it is I'm sure your daughter will tell you it's very small at the same time. So you see the same casting directors and the same casting people over and over again. So the community is very small. So even if you don't book the role, you can still win that relationship. Start that relationship, book that relationship, or what we call in this community, booking the room.

Albert:

So when you book the room, in a sense, every time that role comes in, you want to be the type that's like hey, I want to call Susie in, I want to call you know, frank. When you're that person, the cast director says, hey, I want to call them in Because there's a lot of clients now that I have that I don't even have the pitch in for a role. Sometimes the cast director is emailing me and saying, hey, can we get them in to try out for this role? That's where you want to be as an actor. You want to be on those lists. You want to be on those quick call-in lists, the quick thinking of lists, because you show up, they know you're going to show up and do your best. They know you're, they trust you enough to do that, because this business, you know, yes, there are a lot of it's saturated, there's so much competition, but at the end of the day, this is just like every other business. It's all about relationships, it's all about trust, it's all about relationships.

JD:

Yeah, we say the network is everything your network is everything, and and that makes absolutely no work is everything I think patrick stewart, it was talking about the auditioning process as well, and one of the things that he said is that if you've got, you know 60 amazing performers who come in and audition for a role, but they're all vanilla, they're all excellent performers delivering an excellent performance. Um, the question is, how do you, how do you, become the unique person that they remember? Um, and his recommendation was very much to be you like to be, not not to try to fit the role, but to come in and be the personification of yourself, even though you're performing in a role, because that right will, like you, stand out and and that's what I hear a lot from casting directors who are casting like major roles in tv series, especially if it's like a tv pilot that hasn't been produced yet.

Albert:

They don't know what they're looking for yet. Yeah, so, rather than playing it safe, like you could give a great read but you're not bringing yourself in, because if you really brought your unique self in, you could, you could bring it. I could have 30 actors read the same script, but if they're really being, you know, bringing themselves into it, I'm gonna be watching 30 different, completely different performances. It's the same lines, but it's different performances. It's like the, the musician you ever see. Know, we see a remake of a song. Sometimes it's one that's a completely different arrangement Same song, same melody, but just a different flavor to it.

Albert:

Yeah, so you remember and so I think the saint that's rememberable and it'll most likely get you called in. Because when you can bring in and take a chance and I'm not saying being completely lat-language over the top, but taking a chance, bringing your own unique experiences into it, because a lot of times and this is what I've learned, you know, from being in this industry when you become like a really well-known actor, the scripts start getting written around you.

JD:

Yeah.

Albert:

You know, and because I've had clients who were working on like TV shows and would be working alongside of like the main cast of the TV shows and the writers are sometimes writing their lines right on the spot thing.

Albert:

you know, no, and the star would sometimes say I don't like this line, can we change it to this? And so, and also, you have to be able to trust your instincts because when you're working on a lower, maybe on a lower end project, a low budget film, you have a film director maybe directing you and telling you exactly where to stand, where to say your lines. But I've also had people who were like main cast in TV shows say sometimes the director will say, hey, action, go.

JD:

Yeah.

Albert:

Nothing. So you have to come up with trusting yourself to bring you know whatever you use to the role, and if you're a well-trained actor, you should be able to do that, you know, without an issue. Yeah, I'm confident.

JD:

No, I think that makes sense, and I've definitely seen situations in my own experience, again in community theater, where the less polished performance actually was the one that stood out. Um, and, and it stood out because there was the character was believable, the character was memorable, or whatever. They didn't know the lines as well as the other people who auditioned. They weren't as pitch perfect, but by gosh they were.

Albert:

They were memorable and impactful and that's the whole thing. You're really moving your audience because the because the audience and this is work like a element of hypnosis comes in, because it's suspension of disbelief, because you know when you go to into a theater or when you will put the tv on and you're or netflix and you're going to watch a movie, tv show or theater. Well, you know when you're sitting down or and you're or netflix and you're going to watch a movie, tv show or theater, well, you know, when you're sitting down of what you're watching is going to be. It's fake, right, but if it's a really good performance and really it looks real, that's going to go out the window you still want to believe it right yeah and now you start believing it and this is what people will either laugh or cry.

Albert:

We'll get angry, get scared. Because it became believable, because it is authentic yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that's the whole thing is really authentic so going back to mindset, if we could.

JD:

You know you talked about the fact that going into that audition with the right mindset is game changing. You know, not overthinking, not doubting yourself, and so forth. And we know that some people are half glass full and some people are half glass empty. Some people are more likely to be vocally self-critical and doubting themselves and some are not. As a coach, how do you work with those folks who have a negative mindset? What's your approach, coach? How do you work?

Albert:

with those folks who who have a negative mindset. What's your approach? Well, the first thing is, most of the time they'll have the negative mindset because of the repeated times they've already tried and it didn't work and they disappointment and again, sometimes it's just a protective mechanism there to be negative, because if I don't expect anything, I'm not going to get hurt.

JD:

Right.

Albert:

If I just look at everything as being, you know, no expectations, I'm not going to get hurt. So I mean the thing about we have to tread lightly, because most people, when they have a negative mindset, are not going to walk around saying, hey, I have a negative, a negative mindset, you know, they don't realize that it is negative. They'll tell you oh, I'm just keeping it real, or I'm telling like it is right, or I'm just telling the truth. So you must be.

Albert:

You must be listening to their internal dialogue, though, right, you must be looking out for how they're how they're talking to themselves, I would imagine yeah, yeah, I mean I would look at body language, I would kind of look at other, you know, nonverbals if I can, right, and the main thing a lot of times I would just challenge, like when they say something like I'll never get it or this will never work.

JD:

Right.

Albert:

Then you start going like with kind of like meta on them. It's like, well, by who? Or by what, or who said it? And yeah, it can be a little annoying in the beginning, but it's like, well, you know. Or it's like I can't do anything right Anything, and you start kind of questioning it. Or no one's everyone thinks I suck at acting. There's 8 billion people on the planet. You talk to everyone and they all think and they laugh. Now they're like this is yeah, you see how you're generalizing here. Or I'll get a lot of.

Albert:

You know, sometimes I'll tell the actor you know the news, I'm sorry, you didn't get the role. And immediately I knew the casting director didn't like me. I'm like, okay, let's talk about this for a second. Did they call you and tell you? Or pull you aside and say you know I don't like you? And then they start laughing like no, you're coming with that filter, with that, all it is. You just didn't get the role, period.

Albert:

Now you're telling yourself another story that is not true, objectively true. You just didn't get the role. That's all the truth is. And the same thing goes where people take this whole rejection out of sync. I'm like all they did was say no, you're the one attaching this thing, you're telling the story. All they did was say no. That's all they did, and not now, or just maybe not now. Or how did they say no, maybe they're too busy, maybe they're too booked, or maybe they weren't the right fit for the role. That's all they said. That's nothing about whether they like you or not or how good of an actor you are, but we have a tendency to do that. It's like antenna goes up.

JD:

They said no, danger, I'm gonna run and say no, yeah, I'm gonna say well, this is see, told you yeah, I mean I would have a question for you around neurolinguistic programming or nlpLP, and I heard some wonderful slight of mouth just then in terms of the language that you used, in terms of kind of like challenging the dialogue that we have with ourselves. It's such an important thing to do and we do. Of course, as humans, we are incredibly self-deprecating. Even if we're not on the outward side, we are internally constantly self-deprecating. Nobody likes us, we're not good at what we do. Um, it was a conspiracy to get me, whatever it happens to be, um, and so I'm hearing you, uh, actively challenging those conversations. It sounds a little bit cbt is, in fact yeah, well it's.

Albert:

It's interesting because you, because you know, for those of you who don't kind of know a lot of NLP work is based off of CBT and the work of, like Virginia Satir, fritz Perls and Milton Erickson, which are really started like kind of a. You know, a lot of the camp will borrow the CBT role. Now, of course I may not say that you know, it's like the whole territorial role among some therapist camps, but the truth of the matter is there is a lot of cbt in nlp, absolutely, and sending would fight him out. And actually it was interesting because, looking back now, even though david burns never mentioned nlp or fight a in his book, the entire book was about reframing negative beliefs and I believe that that's pure sight of mouth, right there, pure NLP, right there Again, just another word for it. So it's just about changing the perceptions of things and the interesting thing is like sometimes even going with nlp is helping someone understand a third person perspective, yeah, like that perceptual position.

Albert:

So, yes, um, very often it's like I might even challenge them, like so your acting friend has had, you know, just had this happen to them, what would you say? And immediately they're saying exactly the same thing. I just said that it was either their friend I'm like. So why don't you believe that yourself?

JD:

I love that. So you're using perceptional positions to help them self-coach Effectively is what you're doing, of course.

Albert:

You're taking them out. You know if I've watched some really skilled hypnotherapists and lp work that comes in and the interesting thing is you really work in perceptual positions. It's the clients are coaching themselves. It's amazing to watch powerful you know, it's very powerful because and it's much more powerful than me giving a direct intervention to you. I'm saying because now it's just like, okay, I'm going to sit back and just watch this coaching session happen.

JD:

You teach them the thing they can do it themselves. It's fantastic.

Albert:

Well, that's where I believe why. So a little bit of just going back to a little bit of my backstory. I started off with clinical psychology Right, and I was going to be a straight up clinician. I was getting getting and I didn't really know what was happening. But I was getting very disillusioned with pathologizing and just with general talk therapy, because I felt like, okay, if you're telling me you saw this person with deep trauma for eight or nine, ten years who had a diagnosable personality disorder and they're not getting better, something is not right here.

Albert:

Now I still believe in traditional therapy, I still believe that psychotherapy has its place and I think, of course, somebody has a lot of complex trauma and they're working without. I would like you to work with a therapist too, a clinical psychologist, and then we can also do some NLP work together at the same time. But the truth of the matter is it's all about solutions. It's about getting the person to do that, and one of the suppositions about lp is we have all the answers we need. We have everything we really need yeah, all of us do to solve anything we need. It's just sometimes getting us to think that. So really getting someone to disassociate and come into the third person and whether that might be you using a metaphorical figure sometimes and, you know, getting someone to conjure you know a mentor that they had. What would your mentor say to you? Right now and again, it's just when they're really into it. It's just amazing to watch people coach themselves. It's like, well, what have you done?

JD:

You know, I'm a coach too, and so I've thought a lot about what the difference is between therapy and coaching, and to my mind, you know, the mission of a coach is to make themselves as redundant as they can be as quickly as possible. You want to get to a point where your client is independently capable of adjusting their thought patterns so they don't need you anymore.

Albert:

Exactly, I would not want to have somebody with me for three or four years. Patterns, so you don't, they don't need you anymore. Um, exactly, I don't want, I don't want them, I don't. I would not want to have somebody with me for three or four years I I don't.

Albert:

I mean, yeah, you know, and some people, maybe traditional therapists, may stopping at that, but I I don't, you know, I I definitely that shouldn't be right. I mean they should have to get in, get out and be able to solve it on their own, be their own therapist. They don't need us anymore.

JD:

Yeah, exactly Again. That's why I go back to teaching the fish. I want to get to a point where my clients can do it themselves. They know how to do it, they know how to question themselves or challenge themselves and know how to think differently.

JD:

For the listeners, CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy and the notion at a very high level is that you look at a triggering event or an activity, then what the thought was, what the perception of that was, what the feeling was that went with that, and then what that drove as a behavior, and then you help the client think about alternative stories. They can tell themselves more positive stories. They can tell themselves At a higher level. That's what CBT is. It's helping people think differently. So if somebody walked past me without saying good morning this morning and I tell myself they don't like me because they didn't say good morning, the alternative might be that they were just busy or that they were, you know, focused on something else and they really do like you, and so it's just helping people kind of reframe things at a high level, or they could have their earbuds and you didn't see their earbuds and they didn't even hear or see you yeah, they didn't even, you know, acknowledge you because, um, it's just about how you look at it.

Albert:

And worst case scenario, let's say they didn't say intentionally, say good morning to you. Does it matter? Is it that important? You know, okay, they didn't say good morning to you. Does it matter? Is it that important? You know, okay, they didn't say good morning, okay. Well, I'll just say good morning the next day, and that's the whole thing too. I'm not going to get my days not going to be, because I'll see, sometimes I even see people like Mary Timmons. I'll go up to somebody or you know, across the room, say good morning. Well, they ignore me, like they can barely hear you. They probably didn't even hear you, so, but yeah, it's going back. It's just reframing the initial belief, because we cannot control other people's you know, uh, behaviors, how they're going to respond to us. What we can do just is monitor how we're going to react to it exactly that's powerful stuff.

JD:

Look, I want to make sure we talk about your book Rise Above the Script and in the book. You know, I know you talk about the big five. So openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism. Can you like, for the listeners, give us like a higher level? What's the book about and how did it come about?

Albert:

So the book came about like out of necessity, because of the self-sabotage I was seeing, and it kind of bring awareness to this topic. I mean, there's still a lot of work that has to be done, but I feel like it was a great start to it and the way the book was organized because personality factors what you just indicated the big five is a huge impact on our performance. You know, obviously to be creative you have to have an open mind. So you have the openness. You have to try out new things, try out new ways of doing things, try out new things, try out new ways of doing things. But you also have to be very conscientious too, because one of the that means like being disciplined, being focused.

Albert:

It's called show business for a reason. Business is the second part. So you have to be conscientious. So it's going to be proactive being on top of your thing, keeping your appointments, keeping your obligations, making sure you're on top of everything and focus.

Albert:

And then there's extraversion. Now, again, you don't have this. I have to be. I'm not talking about extraversion where you have to shout from the rooftops and be the life of the party, but you have to know how to connect to other people. Go to networking events, go to events, promote yourself. So you, there has to be some type of moderate level of extroversion needed, especially if you're going to be an actor in show business.

Albert:

And then agreeableness is how well are you able to follow directions, be coachable, listen to authority, implement what you do, because a lot of people aren't coachable or directable and that's going to be a major handicap. Yep, if you're not coachable or directable, and that's going to be a major handicap. Yep, if you're not, if you're not coachable or directable. And then neuroticism even though it sounds a little harsher than what it is, but really it just refers to your react reactivity level. You know, do you get easily triggered? If you're easily triggered, you would score higher neurosis. If you're more laid back, you'd be lower on the neuroticism scale. And how this relates to self-sabotage. What my researchers kept finding out was if you're high in neuroticism and low in conscientiousness, that's going to be equal to self-sabotage.

JD:

Right.

Albert:

That was a major finding that kept coming out in my doctoral research was high in neuroticism and low in conscientiousness.

JD:

Now the book provides an understanding of those factors. Does it also provide guidance?

Albert:

Yes, oh yeah. I mean, every chapter has some sort of helpful guidance like how to increase openness, how to increase conscientiousness, how to be more comfortable extroversion, how to be more agreeable and how to lower the temperature and neuroticism. And then, of course, I talk about fear of success. And also one last thing, I think, where we didn't kind of mention fear of success is what are your views of money? Right, because a lot of times, everyone consciously is going to tell you I want to be rich, I'd love to make more money, sure, but do you really? And that's because a lot of times especially, you grew up maybe being taught by your society or by your culture or by your elders that money is evil, money is bad, rich people are bad, greedy. Well, subconsciously, you don't want to be greedy, so therefore, money becomes almost a radioactive substance look, I couldn't agree more with you on that.

JD:

And again I'm going to go back to my corporate experience. You know I I in my early days as a manager, I felt like money was a motivator and I was a believer in that. And I got to say I worked out through mistake after mistake that I made that money actually isn't the motivator. I go back to Maslow's. I kind of feel like that once you've got the fundamentals covered from a financial perspective, it very quickly fades away. Very quickly fades away, certainly if you don't have a roof and food. Money matters but it's not the thing that gets people who are well-covered motivated. I think I talk about Daniel Pink's book Drive and I think his research into motivation for anything that was cognitive was that money was actually a detraction from productivity. It actually didn't improve productivity, it made it worse.

Albert:

Yes, uh, detraction from productivity. It actually didn't improve productivity, it made it worse. Yes, now it really if you don't love what you do, and this is why, like you see a lot of people- that are really wealthy and I'm talking really wealthy but are also very miserable, right, bitter depressed, miserable, right, bitter depressed, lonely.

Albert:

Because you know, and yes, when you're up, when you're struggling, money is definitely be helpful, actor, and it's going to be an eight, but it's not going to make you happy, because if you're unhappy, then you're just going to be having more money and be unhappy at the same time yeah, yeah, it makes sense, I gotta say.

JD:

Extraversion is the other one. I think that is, um, it's interesting for me. So, again, I I talked about it earlier, but I have known so many people in my business career who I thought were raging extroverts until I got to know them well and then I worked out that they were in fact quite introvert, but there's a facade that they put on in the boardroom or in the meeting room or on the stage that that kind of shields them from that, that introversion. You must come across that as well, right? I think people even confuse themselves sometimes yeah, absolutely.

Albert:

Because a lot of times when people see an actor on screen or on stage, or even a musician a rock musician they may be screaming, they may be thrashing, they may be jumping all over stage and really have this gregarious persona. But the one thing it's a facade, it's a persona, they're performing and it may look like they're feeding from the audience, but they're not. They're feeding from their own internal art. So I've had a lot of times. Even theater actors will tell me that they could be performing and be such an employee. They don't even see the audience in front of them anymore.

Albert:

They're just in the character in the zone and then sometimes even feel shocked when they do get that standing ovation, because you've ever watched like sometimes, when a singer at the end or sometimes the theater actor gets a standing ovation, you often see it's like a genuine shock on their face.

JD:

Yeah, they're horrified, in fact, sometimes.

Albert:

Horrified and I kind of think it's more of wow, I really was performing in front of people because they got lost and they went to a trance. And they went to a trance like state and performed and were just in the moment taking that to perform for themselves or for the just the people you know that were staring the stage with them.

JD:

Well, and that's it that's an interesting point too, because I I've even had the experience myself where I've stepped off stage and gone. I remember walking up on stage. I actually can't recall whether I did a great job or not. I have no memory of what I just did. Um, it is interesting. I think you go into flow, or whatever you want to call it. Um, at that point you you're on autopilot, you deliver and then you walk off stage.

Albert:

Absolutely. You're in autopilot, you're oblivious to the audience because you're performing. And that's where it's not about the individual, because I've seen sometimes I was watching a play one time, you know, many years ago, and this young actor you know he played like a really brash, drunk, cocky, arrogant guy, like a fool and an idiot, and he was very good.

JD:

Really.

Albert:

What he did and when he came off stage, because I was seeing another client in the show and I was talking to my client and I turned to him and a bunch of us said that was a great job and his persona was very soft-spoken and so gentle of a man and almost like he was ready to hide and so gentle of a man that and they're almost like he was ready to hide. You know, and you know some, I think some people that were with us were like I don't get it. I'm like I do. That was what you were just watching. Was was a performance.

JD:

The form is absolutely. It's a different persona. Yeah, it's a different persona.

Albert:

He's a different guy. You know, yeah, it's a different persona, he's a different guy. He was very soft-spoken and shy. I never really had any interaction with him after that, but I probably can guess that he was a very shy, compassionate, introverted actor who just happened to be playing the character. Well, you know. Suspension of disbelief.

JD:

Which makes it hard for us because, as humans, we want to put everybody in a bucket and we'll get the bucket wrong every time. Yeah, it's interesting. So one of the things that you've talked about is that readiness or not being ready, um, is a story we tell ourselves, you know, to protect ourselves from, from perfectionism or anxiety, whatever happens to be like um, and you referred to a study by cornell which found that, you know, 85 of the things that we think are going to happen to us never happen to us and and I see that quite a lot um, how do you work with that?

Albert:

because that's a very real thing, I see it is a real thing, and that kind of um, I mean, it's not my fault, but I use this a lot and like not ready is a lot we tell ourselves. You know it's a big lie, but I use this a lot in like not ready is a lot we tell ourselves. You know it's a big lie. You know that when you say you're not ready, because the issue is that there's no such thing as perfection, and if you, you know, because a lot of times it's like, well, I'm not ready to do this, especially when it comes to, like, performing or being a coach, I need this. I'm not ready because I need this extra training. I'm not ready yet because I need this extra certification. I'm not ready yet because this is not right, you know, and the truth of the matter is it has nothing to do with that, you know.

Albert:

Whatever it is you're saying you're not ready for, it has to do with your fear and the truth of matters. Until you admit that you'll never be ready, right? I use that in quotations because and so it's better to just start, and and what they call like an imperfect start. So what if it's messy in the beginning? Yeah, so what? Yeah, we're human beings, and I can guarantee you that it's not going to appear as messy as we think it is.

JD:

I used to work with a person who used to say chew off more, bite off more than you can chew, and then chew like buggery.

Albert:

Basically, you know, just just just kind of like. It's kind of like shoot you know, react you know act. Now apologize later.

JD:

Yeah, yeah.

Albert:

Well, so, and I think the same thing is like okay, because you could always then say, okay, think the same thing. It's like okay, because you could always then say, okay, while you're you're doing what you say you're doing, wait, you know what you're not ready for and you do it anyway. You can still get the training so that you become even better and better each time you do it so everything's an experience.

JD:

Um, and, and there's I I like a line that comes from my previous background, which is there's no such thing as failure, only learning.

Albert:

Yeah, or like you know, I say the same thing, except feedback. There's no such thing as failure, only feedback.

JD:

Yeah.

Albert:

All this is a learning thing, but until you work through that because there's no such thing as perfection, and when people are thinking like I need this or I need that, it's like I hate to break it to you, but you'll never be ready- well, we're gonna be here. We're gonna be here for a long time, you know, until you're until your audience want perfection.

JD:

You know I, I it's a different scenario, but I know I went and saw uh, a band years ago, many years ago, who were an amazing band, but they were so perfect on stage I, I got home and I'm like I might as well just put the album on. It was literally they just played the album. Um, I think, as a, as an audience, I want to see something that is that is remarkable, it is memorable and and sometimes perfection's not it. On a similar vein, you know, um and hp did a study in their environment years ago and and they came out with the analysis that said that a man who's 60% ready for a role will apply for a role, but a woman who's 90% ready won't apply for the role. There's this difference in men being willing to take a risk versus women, and I know I'm generalizing like crazy, don't shoot me for that, but do you see the same thing in your arena?

Albert:

I don't know. I don't know if it's that much of a difference gender difference but I would kind of think that sometimes the closer you are to being ready, sometimes the less you're going to do. There is something called sometimes paralysis, and this is why perfectionism comes into that, or even procrast. Procrastination is sometimes when you're going in so many different directions that we don't do anything at all right like yep, you know, sometimes we have too many choices or too many avenues to go in.

Albert:

Yeah, we don't go anywhere anymore, it's just so yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense too.

JD:

Um, sometimes it's just pick something and just jump, uh and see where it goes awesome, look, um, as you've gone on this journey and it's been a fascinating journey, thank you for sharing it. Uh, what's been the biggest hurdle you've had to overcome and how did you overcome it?

Albert:

I think pretty much. You know I'm have to overcome my own self doubt, I think, writing my book. I was a big one with the ambassador syndrome, with well no home. I had to write a book. No one's going to read it no one's going to read it or am I?

Albert:

going to get all these negative reviews, oh, no one's going to read my book, you know. And and someone said, another coach had said to me a really brilliant thing. That kind of woke me up and said well, I can tell you what you are right If you don't write the book, no one's going to read it.

Albert:

Right, that's true, that's true. Or you know like. Sometimes I'll hear people say, you know, like, you know, because I was even skeptical doing a writing book because I would see these courts like make these thousands of dollars a month writing a book. I'm like, oh, that'll never happen, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to do it. And then somebody said, well, I can guarantee if you don't like the book you'll make zero. So you might as well just give it a shot. So I think that's the whole thing is encouraged to be like just take a shot. Yeah, you know. And yeah, um, worry about it later, because even if you look at, like what we're on right now podcasts a lot of people, um, don't start or give up too easily I'm both of those, albert.

JD:

I'll be honest with you. I procrastinated for so long to do this and then I did it and then I stopped and I was. I've convinced myself that no one was listening to it and I was so surprised I get people reaching out to me going what do you do your next episode when you're doing the episode and I thought I got to a point where I'm like, screw it if one person gets value out of this.

Albert:

I'm going to keep doing it and thankfully I'm getting some good feedback now, but yeah, and I think if you have the mentality of it and said there's like a one person gets, I did my job. Yeah, and you know also the stuff like with books or podcasts. That stuff is evergreen, so you never know and now maybe somebody may not listen to it. Do an episode two or three months late, until later it's like oh, wow, okay, I'm finding exactly that.

JD:

No, it's interesting. I'm finding exactly that I'm getting people reaching out to me about episodes that I recorded a year ago. Now it's happening. It's kind of funny. So I think that's very true and I like that. I like the notion there that you just had to do something and so forth. If you could go back 20 years or back to the beginning of this part of your journey and you could talk to yourself what's, what's the conversation? What are you telling yourself?

Albert:

I probably would say two things. Number one, I would say, to start this a lot earlier yep you know, that would probably be the biggest thing. And the other thing especially I can talk to my 18, 21, 25 year old self. I would say stop giving it down what people think of you and just do whatever you want to do just do it and that would probably be the big, two biggest pieces of advice.

JD:

I would say so yeah, that's kind of like you'll find your weirdo mob right, wherever they are um. You may not know them today, but your weirdo mob will find you or whatever.

Albert:

I think there's some absolutely 100, yeah, that's some truth, especially when you work in the work of like hypnosis and I'll be you really will find your weirdo mob quickly. Yeah, amazing, totally, totally absolutely amazing because yeah, I mean it that's the only way to ruin this private yeah, a hundred percent.

JD:

Yeah, no. It's interesting, um, who's had the biggest influence on you? Who do you model?

Albert:

um a couple of people, I would say um a little bit, and in my own way. Obviously I'll never be a tony robbins by force. By force, because I'm not six foot seven and I'm a booming voice, nor do I have energy to jump on trampolines all day long, but I would say coaching style would be that, the realistic thing of that, and just other trainers that I've had in my life, local trainers that I've had in NLP and hypnosis, that are kind of like gentle, compassionate, but how like it is.

JD:

And that's sort of like where I'm at. I could watch Robbins all day. The little snippets.

Albert:

I like Rob, but one of the things like the interesting thing because I got into the NLP background is watching how he calibrates himself to certain people. Yeah, like certain people he's very compassionate with. Other times Like I've I've seen him like use profanities and get someone's face brutal, yeah, yeah.

Albert:

Brutal and and yet people were watching him. I'm so scared, I'm like no, I said for what you're what he's doing here. The reason why he's getting profanity in people's faces is because they themselves are the type of people that will get in people's faces and use profanity. So he's only speaking their language.

Albert:

And even he said it himself in interviews too, that he goes. I would never do that to somebody who's really sensitive and young and timid. I would never get in their face. I would use compassion. But he said, if I noticed somebody's very alpha type a and you know, um has like an arrogance about them I will get in their face. And that's what I find so amazing is how, how he just calibrates himself to.

JD:

I think he's remarkable and I think some of that's rapport building it's quite right is you've got to be, you've got to synergize with who you're talking to, but I do think some of it's a break state as well. I can never forget he was talking to a woman at one of his conferences who was a songwriter, a country music songwriter, and she was just telling him how horrible her life has been. She was going from one trauma to the next trauma and he stopped her and he said from it the next trauma. And he stopped her and he said where's the inspiration for your songwriting come from? And she, she kind of realized it was all coming from all the trauma she'd had in her life. And he's like you are incredibly successful as a songwriter. You're making buckets of money out of it today and you've just told me that the inspiration for your success is all the tragedies you faced in your life. What a gift, um, and it was such, a such a tremendous reframing. I thought he just pulled it like that it was.

Albert:

I'm not doing it justice, but it was quite remarkable the way well, and that's where I think the whole nlp comes out, because it's like um, you're, you're, not talk therapy, because a talk therapist would sit there and say okay, let's talk about what happened to you. You know five, you know, and okay, I'll see you next session. Now you just bawled your eyes out at me and now I just feel even worse than I did walking out.

Albert:

He probably in that moment changed her life or her trajectory and that one little reframe, that slight amount of thing like pulling her out of that state, and it's what we call pacing and leading. So you go, you go, you go, and then you say now I'm going to pull you out of here and get you to think of it this way.

JD:

I think you're right. Yeah, I think you did. Let's pivot Artificial intelligence. I know that it's something that you talk about. How does it fit into your business?

Albert:

I mean, I would consider myself a not necessarily. I wouldn't consider myself a pro user. I'm more of an expert dabbler, where I like to use it for content creation, ideas, okay, frameworks, um, the one thing, and it's great for giving me ideas and it's great for brainstorming. But the one thing I would say I use it not necessarily to to replace me or to think for me. I use it to augment, right, what I'm doing. So I almost could say the ai should really stand for augmented intelligence. Yep, it's just augmenting what I'm doing. So I use it to augment what I'm doing. So you know a lot of times the way I'll use it. If I'm drafting up something, I make sure I come up with my own idea, my, my own framework, and then usually I'll run it through EDI. It's like I make this better or come up with different ideas or something, and then it'll do its job and then I'll come back and I'll put my own voice into it.

JD:

So it's a research assistant, basically.

Albert:

It's a research assistant and personal assistant, automated, kind of like help me with automating stuff and maybe get some of the busy work done. Yeah, the one, I think. When it comes to AI and technology, I think there's a couple of pitfalls that people fall into. One is not using it. I think that's a bit of a pitfall, because you're missing out. But the other pitfall is using it for everything and expecting it to do everything. Yep, for you.

JD:

Um, there there's not an ai out there that can do?

Albert:

that. Yet you know fully and do a good job of it. Yes, they could do what you tell it to do, but it's going to be very bland, generic and boring yeah and very. You know, you could tell it's ai. You know, I can tell you, right now I read a lot. Sometimes I'll read copy online. I'm like, yeah, this is. This is already yeah, this is not you at all.

Albert:

so I I think it's good to use it, but use your own voice into it too and flesh it out and and there's even a way that you can kind of even get it to mimic, because all AI does is just kind of mimic and copy and make predictions. So if it knows how I type and how I respond, it can make predictions. They're not perfect predictions, but it can make predictions on how I would respond if I was to write a sales letter in this area, because it knows my previous writing. Sometimes I'm like, wow, that was really good, because it does sound like me. I'm not saying, oh, this sounds like a really good sales letter, because if it's not me, it doesn't sound like me, it's not going to work. The important thing is to make sure we massage the content we use and not to just accept and not to just accept and not to just copy and paste.

Albert:

That guy got it, I'm done. And then therefore it's like, okay, this doesn't sound like you, because I wrote a lot before this. I wrote a book before I really AI'd it out, so I would think people would know okay, this doesn't sound like Albert. Right here, this sounds a little too polished to be Albert, and that's another thing too about what we were talking about earlier is you want to sound a bit authentic, not polished, and AL will give you polished text which again, is going to bring the radar of everybody that's reading your content saying this is too perfect, this is too polished. So I think the important thing is to reiterate and still put the work in, and maybe 50-50, if you want to look at it that way, 50% of your 50% AI does some of the lifting for you, but it still should be your own voice. And one area that a couple of areas of concern that I have with AI is one people are turning it to for therapy.

JD:

Yes.

Albert:

And I don't. I don't care how great it can do and automating stuff and how great it can be in writing out beautiful copy, it is not going to be. It is not able to calibrate, it's not able to read body language. It is not able to because it's all it's doing is making predictive text and that's all it's going to do. Or it might give you some very generic homework quotes type of thing where it's like, okay, this sounds pretty, you know, because it doesn't really understand the human condition. So I'm concerned with people turning it to chatbots for therapy. I'm also concerned with people turning to chatbots for just commanding chip I agree because, because it does it.

Albert:

The interesting thing was and I know most of the recent chatbots for some reason the companies kind of start programming it because they didn't do this in the beginning where it'll start referring to you by name and it'll start sounding like it's actually a human being talking to you, and because they'll even sometimes speak, you know, put out a copy and be like in first person. I feel this way and so I think it's deceptive for some people you know who may think oh no, you're talking to, this is a robot, it's not a human being and we shouldn't be looking at it for a companionship, and then also, you know. So those are the big things I would say that are really on my concern the people turning into companionship and people turning into therapy, because even Sam Altman, the founder of ChatGP and OpenAI, had said that AI should not be a therapist or a companion.

JD:

And I agree with you 100%. I have the same concern and I'm afraid the adoption rates for Gen Z, in terms of using it as a coach, as a companion, are quite high apparently, statistically. So I'm watching with interest to see where that goes.

Albert:

I think there are people who want to do that, yeah, and there was a big case in the United States that's still in litigation right now where a 16-year year old that took his life and they're blaming ai for that because apparently chad gbt called him how to how to do it. You know, kind of like. And again, the one thing that I've seen, you know especially what being a user myself is, it's very agreeable and I think that's the problem that I've never tried. I would never try it. But if you have a nefarious prompt that you put in there and say I want to take my life, and then I think, because allegedly what I heard was it told him no, don't do this, but do that, but it's agreeable, you're absolutely correct.

JD:

It's designed to come back.

Albert:

Yeah, it's designed to be a tool and that's where I think, if you are going to be designing it to be a chatbot which maybe some people in OpenAI are doing it that way purposely then you need to put guardrails in there that can put the sensors on and say you know, stop, when these conversations are happening. Or now you're also saying, could do autonomous tasks for you great. Well then, maybe you should be alerting authorities or flagging authorities well, and that's when self and that last part is the key right.

JD:

So, if I look at the events that we've seen recently, you know there were social media posts that were clues to the events likely to happen. That could have been detected by an AI system. That resulted in an escalation, you know.

Albert:

Yeah, and I know and I know it's like unpopular, but I know with the technology that can easily be done, where it can escalate it to the authorities.

JD:

Yes.

Albert:

You know, say, okay, you need to look at this post or you need to look at this chatbot, because they already said even if they had companies that these chats aren't private. Well, good, that's fine, if they're not private, then there should be some like alert system coming up saying you know, suicide, homicide discussions are coming in here it feels like an opportunity.

JD:

Albert, I'm watching that, that space, with a lot of interest because it does feel like I get you on the threat and I'm nervous about the threat. But I also think there's an opportunity if you've got public posts that are indicating that you're going to self-harm or you're going to harm others. If their public post, there's no reason whatsoever that ai can't review those and see patterns.

JD:

Nope yeah, no, I, I totally agree there yeah, yeah, I think bitchy, look, um, we're, we're almost at time. I've got a couple of questions that I ask all my guests that I want to go through with you quickly. Um, if you could only read one book, or listen to one book, for the rest of your life, what would it be and why?

Albert:

um kind of say, um, I'm thinking dale carnegie would probably up there, up there, but I would probably say maybe thinking grow by napoleon hill or some book on that level, just on manifestation, because you know, just keep me in that framework right and again. I could probably listen to robbins for the rest of my life too yeah, fair, now I get that.

JD:

Um, is there a ritual, a hack or a habit that you've adopted on a daily basis that's made a significant impact on your effectiveness?

Albert:

I would say taking action is probably the biggest thing, and not staying in a planning phase too long. But like, well, you have this idea, okay, maybe flesh it out a little bit, but then what can you do to start taking action in it, you know, even if it's just asking other people for feedback on the idea. But that's all like take action, action, don't wait for it to happen?

JD:

is there a model that you use that helps you do that?

Albert:

um it, is there a model that that make me do that? I think it's just by. I don't want to say I'm necessarily a model. It's just like, instead of saying a word someday, it's like okay, I'm making an actual plan right this happened so you're taking it saying creating it absolutely like yeah. When will this happen? When will these emails go out? When will this you know first draft be written, or at least started to be written?

JD:

right instead of saying someday I'll do this or someday I'll do that right, so things are time boxed for you, okay, um, this is a two-part question. Uh, the first part is when you need your superpowers, when you know you've got something particularly challenging or arduous you have to deal with, where do you get your energy?

Albert:

where do I get my energy from? I I think the important thing is just, you know, taking care of myself, making sure that, um, I'm in a good headspace, um, and having a support system is important. So I have my own network, I have some coaches, I own work with myself, so that's part of it. That's where I get my energy from. And I think you know, like noticing now, when I start to fall into a story mindset where it's like these, when that inner voice starts kicking in, I'm like realizing that, taking a step back and realizing this is a story, I'm telling myself right, not reality, yep, this isn't real. You know, and and I think that's all thing too, is really just telling yourself this is not real when you start going into, like a spiral yep, yep, so catching yourself?

JD:

yeah, no, that makes sense. So let me inverse that um, what's your kryptonite? What? What is it that will take the energy out of you, and how do you overcome it?

Albert:

I think the biggest thing is sometimes dopamine killers. Like you know, social media scrolling, uh post, like there's time, you know, and especially and I'm not getting into it, but there's a lot going on the past few weeks here in the world. Yes, you know that we can easily catastrophize over. Yes, and sometimes I think if I look too long, it's just to a point where I have to turn off. I have to log off and do what I need to do, otherwise I'm gonna get sucked into it look and it's interesting, right?

JD:

so my last episode last week I was looking at this as well because I do think that you're right, there's a lot going on in the last year and, in particular, I think things are kind of interesting around the world and I do think there's a perception that, you know, we're in the worst of times and so forth for some people. But you know, I did some research and the 21st century is pretty damn good on a relative scale. If you look at the world.

Albert:

Yeah, and it's interesting because every I think every generation thinks that they're having the worst. It's the worst time ever. Yeah, and I was even reading a quote that, even like socrates and aristotle's, all the world was out of control. And this is back in three, four, five hundred bc. So, yeah, it's just about knowing that. No, it's, this is just nor you know typical situations that will happen. I mean, look, we're in a much better space. We're actually not in caveman era anymore.

JD:

Yeah, yeah, well, I think, yeah, finding balance, kind of rationalizing what's going on, is important, and we do. We're fed that the seven by 24 hour news stream is negative. The social media is negative. It's not surprising that it gets under our skin at times. I think it's a it's a great call out um. On the topic of quotes, do you have a quote that you think is is a memorable one for our audience? Is there a quote that you go back to?

Albert:

yeah, and that goes about my thing about rejection. There's no such thing as rejection, only a simple reminder that your services are not needed today.

JD:

Right, right, I love that. Well, look, this has been awesome, albert, I really appreciate the time you've shared so much on this episode. I'll be including links to your profile and your websites in the notes for the session, as well as including a link to your book, but I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it's the evening there in New York and it's a beautiful day here in Sydney today, but, thanks again, I really appreciate you having me.

Albert:

Thank you again, John. I'm really happy to be here.

JD:

Fantastic Listeners. Thanks for joining and listening in, as always. I'd love to hear your feedback, any questions you've got, and certainly reach out to albert directly if you've got questions about what he does and the and the good experiences that he's had. Beyond that, I hope, wherever you are, you're living your best life and please be good to each other.

Head Shot

John (jd) Dwyer

Host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.

Pybites Podcast Artwork

Pybites Podcast

Julian Sequeira & Bob Belderbos
Manager Tools Artwork

Manager Tools

Manager Tools
Coaching for Leaders Artwork

Coaching for Leaders

Dave Stachowiak