JD's Journal
Having roamed this planet for six decades, and after 47 years of full-time employment in a smorgasbord of roles and locations, I'm sharing the gems I've gathered plus the wisdom of other remarkable leaders and innovators who I've encountered along the way. I don't have a clear destination yet, but based on my historical experience, it's certain to be a dynamic and unpredictable adventure. Welcome aboard!
JD's Journal
Andrea Gosselink: From Corporate HR to Career & Leadership Coaching
Discover the art of sustainable living and career transformation through an inspiring dialogue with Andrea Gosselink, a career and leadership coach who transitioned from a high-powered corporate role to a life immersed in permaculture. Andrea’s journey from Sydney to the Central Coast of Australia illustrates a move towards a more fulfilling and environmentally conscious lifestyle. Our conversation unveils the principles of permaculture, focusing on sustainable gardening and living practices that align with Andrea's passion for the environment and creativity.
Andrea takes us through her impressive career trajectory, from her psychology roots to impactful HR roles at Anheuser-Busch and Amazon. She shares how these experiences fueled her desire to guide others toward career fulfillment, ultimately leading her to establish a successful coaching business. Listen to Andrea recount the invaluable lessons she learned from Amazon's leadership principles and the significance of continuous education in both personal and professional realms. This chapter is a testament to the power of resilience and adaptability in navigating career transitions.
We also delve into the daily balancing act of coaching, parenting, and maintaining productivity in a fast-paced world. Andrea offers practical strategies for setting boundaries, prioritizing tasks, and fostering a supportive environment. Hear about her transformative coaching mindset inspired by Steven Covey and her insightful take on managing career goals alongside family responsibilities. This episode is packed with actionable advice and personal anecdotes, making it a must-listen for anyone striving to find balance and purpose in their professional and personal lives.
Hi folk, and welcome to the JDs Journal podcast where, every couple of weeks, my guests and I share some of our life's journey our successes, our failures, the valuable lessons that we've learned on the way and the resources that we've gathered that have allowed us to survive, prosper and thrive. The opinions and perspectives shared on JD's Journal should be taken and applied with your own good judgment. Episodes of the podcast are largely unscripted and unedited. I'll do my best to keep things on topic, but you can expect some occasional glitches and a little meandering along the way. I hope, if nothing else, you find that entertaining Again. It's always great to have you back here. Today I have an interesting guest, a guest that I've worked with in a very different context from what she's doing today.
JD:Andrea Gosselink is a career and leadership coach who works with professionals to help them achieve their career goals, whether that's to be more effective in their current role, to work on their career advancement and development, or to take on a completely different career path or a new direction in their lives.
JD:Originally from the USA, Andrea is now based in the central coast of Australia, about an hour north of the city sorry central business district. After 15 odd years very successful years in the corporate world, she's chosen to invest more time in her interests and her hobbies and, having recently completed a permaculture course, she's spending more time in her garden, in a small acreage, where she's focused on building native and edible gardens. I'm fascinated by that. We'll definitely talk about that today. Andrea's career change is also allowing her to dedicate more time to her husband of 20 years and her two beautiful children, who are seven and nine, and so she's taken a very different career path from where she was, and I'm very keen to explore that with Andrea today and see where we go. Andrea, did I introduce you appropriately, or is there anything you'd like to add or change in what I said just now?
Andrea:No, I think you covered a lot of the bases, thank you.
JD:Excellent, good, I got it right again. Tick that box, all right. So right up front. I'm absolutely keen to get into the details of what you're working on today, but I'm super curious. I've not heard of permaculture before. I know nothing about it, and I'm sure some of my listeners are the same, so introduce us. What is permaculture? Why should I care?
Andrea:Yeah, yeah. Well, like you, I had never heard of the term before and I think it wasn't until we moved from Sydney up here on our property where a neighbor introduced me to permaculture. And it's actually a term that was coined by two Australian researchers and I think you know. Initially its focus was to look at a different way of growing food outside what you would normally see in industrialized agriculture. Right, and industrialized agriculture is typically like a monoculture, right, you grow one thing, do it again and again, and I think the idea of permaculture is really kind of like the beginnings of looking at sustainable, more environmentally friendly, organic, to a lot of extent, ways of like. I said, it started with growing food, but it really is kind of something that you can look at across all the different avenues of your life and so like for me in practice, you know what that means is.
Andrea:You know, I think I love spending time in the garden and I think it aligned well with my principles. I figure, if I'm going to do all this work, let me try to do it without you know the chemicals and things like that. I'm an avid composter. I am trying to introduce. You know, I'm lucky, I have hundreds of gum trees, but I don't have a lot of the sub canopy or below, so I'm starting to kind of build that up in our property and yeah, I love it.
JD:I think you know, in general, for me, like working in the garden is, you know, it's a lot of experimentation, what works, what doesn't work, and so for me it really is a great kind of outlet and I love to see the evolution and you know what changes every year and how things are growing that's awesome, so I it sounds like it parallels to something I saw recently which was not vegetables or not growing for the purpose of produce but but gardens, like in in domestic gardens, where the recommendation was like stop tending a garden effectively allow these things to coexist, allow them to find their own natural balance and and to some degree there's there's a lot of uh knowledge there that says the soil and the conditions are improved by that diversity of of the plants and the way that you allow them to kind of live and grow and die, and and and break down naturally. Is there parallels there? Kind of live and grow and die, and and and break down naturally? Is there parallels there in what I just described?
Andrea:Yes, a hundred percent. And I would say too, like, yes, it's, it's gone beyond food growing. And in fact, you know the woman who I took my course with her, her handle is like perma coach, you know her. She says I don't, I don't, you know plant, I don't, I don't you know plant, I don't plant gardens. I build soil, you know, and so it's a lot of focus on the soil, how to build it up, you know. There's a lot of focus on like even you know why have these big yards of grass when you could actually have a more diverse, you know, landscape. And yeah, it in some extent extent I wouldn't say it's exactly like let it go, because I think you'd be surprised how many things are not um, native and can take over um, but um, yeah, I think it's being mindful of you know what you have in your garden and and it's not just um, yeah, so you're not just looking at the plants, right you're.
Andrea:You're looking at, okay, well, where's my water source? Where is the wind coming from? When do I see light at different times of the year? What animals native animals are coming into my garden? How can I attract more pollinators? You really are kind of looking at things holistically where you know it may not have been. You may not have been looking at all those elements before.
JD:I love that. No, I like that a lot in terms of the approach and, as I said, I did hear a little bit about this again from different types of gardens as well. For me, as a lazy gardener, it sounds perfect right.
Andrea:Yes, well, and they say, like a good permie is a lazy gardener, right? Because, yeah, you want to try to really, you know energy is everything and you don't want to have to be putting tons and tons of energy into every aspect of your garden. So, yeah, where can you just chop and drop, you know? Where can you, you know, just let things go. You know what will have a natural cycle that doesn't need a lot of water, a lot of tending to. You know how can you just avoid weeds, that sort of thing.
JD:The last question on this but where would I learn about this? If this was something I wanted to pursue, where would I go to find out more information about it?
Andrea:Yeah, I would say most areas have especially in Australia, but I've seen it all over the world some sort of local permaculture group. So I know there is one in your area. I've joined the Central Coast Permaculture Group and then you know, I think if it's not something, you want to be a member. They sometimes have events. So I think one of the events that first attracted me is they had an edible garden tour where you know 70 people open their gardens. You could just go and visit them, talk about what they were doing and you know kind of share practices, and so I think you know if you look around you'll find events near you.
JD:Well, you've sparked my curiosity, so I'm going to poke around and see what I can find out. All right, Well, thank you for that. I didn't think I'd be talking about gardening in this podcast to be honest with you, but I love this topic.
JD:I think it's fascinating, particularly in this day and age. But I want to bring us back. So we know from the introduction that I gave and I know your profile, that you know you are a career and leadership coach with an extensive HR background, and certainly that's how I know you as somebody who supported me in a HR capacity. So it would be very well, by the way. But what about your greater purpose? You know, when you think about why is Andrea here, if we think about Covey's, you know, begin with the end in mind. What is your greater purpose?
Andrea:Yeah, I think, you know, at this stage I just feel like we put so much time into our working lives, the majority hours of our day, the majority days of our week, the majority of weeks of the year, you know, years of our life it just I think it makes sense for us to, you know, try to be in a place where we can get the most enjoyment and energy and fulfillment and meaning from our careers. So, you know, I in particular really love working with clients who, you know, for whatever reason, are feeling a little bit stuck or not getting that energy from their career space anymore and are looking to get that back their career space anymore and are looking to, you know, get that back. And so I think if I can help people in that space, it's just insanely fulfilling.
JD:So when did you work that out? I mean, you went into HR for some reason. Clearly that was a calling for you in the early days, but when did? Was that prevalent in your mind then, or is this something that's evolved more recently in terms of a passion or a guiding purpose for you?
Andrea:Yeah, you know, look, I've I think I've always kind of been fascinated with the world of work.
Andrea:I think you know you could have called me a workaholic in my early days and I think early days, and I think you know, as I was going into my undergraduate, which was I majored in psychology, I really started to like move towards industrial and organizational psychology courses. I loved, you know that there was research and there was, you know, science behind things like job satisfaction and leadership effectiveness and, you know, engagement and productivity and, and I think you know, especially, that piece of job satisfaction like always, I think, was, you know, something that I gravitated towards and you know, I think to some extent is because I saw people who weren't happy in work and I saw them grinding it out and I just thought there has to be a better way, you know one that can benefit both you know employees but the employer, right, and so you know, I think I'm just a big believer. I think I'm just a big believer, if you can find that meaning and satisfaction in your work, that you'll achieve greater things for yourself and for whatever organization you're part of.
JD:And it's a two-sided coin, isn't it? In the sense that if I'm satisfied with my job, I feel good, I get motivated, I get out of bed in the morning with that kind of energy in my gut. But as an employer, of course the ability to have a workforce who have a high level of job satisfaction results in better productivity, typically better focus, higher quality products and greater retention. So both those things play out. Do you think things have changed in terms of how we think about job satisfaction over the 15-odd years that you were in that role? Has it morphed at all?
Andrea:Yes, to some extent. I think you know what the typical, you know what we would label success, has evolved over time, right, and so I think there was, and still is, a belief that you know if you climb up that corporate ladder, you're going to achieve higher and higher levels of success. That success is what you should I'm using air quotes there should be striving for and that's going to make you satisfied and engaged in your job, right, and I think you know what I'm seeing happen is, you know, people have done that and they've done that for 10, 15 plus years, but they're kind of getting to a point and going actually, I don't, I don't know if more of that is what I want, and I think that's kind of where my coaching comes in. For my, you know, one to one clients is one-to-one clients is looking at what is it that they want and how can we get them to that space.
JD:Awesome. So I want to spend some time with you kind of exploring that in terms of what is the journey of one of your clients? What does it feel like? But before we do that, I wonder if you could share a little bit more about your career journey. So we've got a high-level view of that. But how did you get here? Like, what are the major milestones that you think about in terms of inflection points in your career?
Andrea:Yeah, I think. Well, as I mentioned before, I was studying my undergrad. My parents did not go to uni, so it was a whole new world for me and I honestly wasn't like most people. Right, when you're 20, you don't really know where you're going to go.
JD:And if you do.
Andrea:who knows if that's the right answer, you know. So anyways, like I said, I loved, quite frankly, I had a psychology class in high school and I loved that. And so I thought, well, let, quite frankly, I had a psychology class in high school and I loved that. And so I thought, well, let me keep diving into that a bit more. And I thought, maybe I'd go into teaching. Maybe I always worked in hospitality as I was going to school to pay for school, and so I thought maybe there was something there in corporate training training.
Andrea:But as I was kind of going more towards that organizational and industrial psychology, I had, just, like the grad school, come speak to one of our lecturers one time and said, hey, we also have this master's program in HR and industrial relations.
Andrea:And, yeah, again, I never thought I would go on to get a master's degree, it wasn't on my roadmap but, um, I think it was kind of the first time I was able to kind of put a name to something I would like to do and I like the idea of, you know again, like it's a combining, you know how the science and, uh, research and you know, helping improve the lives of employees and organizations. So so I decided to go in on the master's and I'll also be completely honest here too. As they went through their slide deck, talking about the program, they said you know, we have 95% placement coming out of our program and this is the starting salary. And I thought, well, that would be nice. I'm sure I won't be in that 5%. So it was kind of nice to see that there was like a draft road to employment.
Andrea:Well cause, yeah, I mean, quite frankly, my undergrad I was like, oh you know, I don't know where I'll go. I don't even you know, I had, no, I had no idea how to translate that into a job that I could earn a living from. So I like that this had a bit of a roadmap, so anyway, that's kind of how I kind of fell down the path of HR. And again, also, they had a really robust internship program so I was able to do an internship between the first and second year that translated into a full time job offer upon graduation and kind of my first job outside of once I graduated. It was for Anheuser-Busch, so they are one of the world's largest breweries, known for Budweiser in the US, and it was a great role, great company perks we got a free case of beer every month or two, great, you know, tickets to sporting events, that sort of thing. But it was also a very well-established, mature company and so it was a lot about more like executing than you know, I think, getting the opportunity to develop things or to build things. And so when a recruiter or headhunter had called to tell me about an opportunity with Amazon, and again I would say this was kind of a pivotal moment because I didn't picture I would only stay with a company for less than two years. But when, when Amazon called, I remember going to their careers page and it said this is a place where builders can build, and it just resonated and I thought that's what I want to do, and so I decided to pursue that opportunity and was successful. And so I moved from New York to Nevada to work as an HR business partner at a fulfillment center there.
Andrea:And, yeah, I think that was also, you know, that kind of going at the time, like Amazon was still known as a bookseller, it was still. There was a little bit of ooh, it's a startup, it's a. You know a dot, it's a, you know dot com. You know, is this a good, safe choice? Um, you know chatter, that was happening. Um, anyway, I bought a house in new york, oh, and you're gonna sell that. Uh, and now, mind you, I'll also say this was like 2007 and you'll know that 2008 was the gfc right, great financial crisis. So, like it was a, it was probably a strange time to take this leap, but, um, I did it and, uh, it was great and I would say, like that, builders can build. Like you know, honestly, it was like the wild west that we were building everything, you know, building our onboarding, our leadership development programs, our you know employee engagement, and it just there was no shortage of things to build and that could use, you know, use your energy, and so it was. It was extremely fulfilling.
Andrea:And then, you know, my, my career with Amazon kind of evolved, where I later then took on a management role at the Las Vegas Fulfillment Center. I did that, again for a shorter period of time than I expected, but I was tapped on the shoulder to yes, a little history context, you know so, 2008, great financial crisis. We kind of just sat there with the growth and then, I think, by the time 2010 came around, the company said I think we're going to keep growing. Like, we've been growing 30, 40 percent. We feel good, let's open, we need to expand our network, and so that time they thought they were going to open I think it was like 12 new fulfillment centers that year they wanted to have a team dedicated to do that. So I was tapped on the shoulder for that.
Andrea:And, again, I think this was another good career lesson because, like, I had never hired an hourly employee for Amazon. Before I had never opened a fulfillment center, but I think what I had done is I had put my hand up to be lead some like data and analytics over our peak season I had, you know, really dove into their systems to understand how data flowed through our systems and what we could use and take from it and and and. So I think, and I also did some Kaizen's on our processes, and so I think you know they were looking for someone to lead this people process team and that's kind of how you know I fell into that opportunity and that was, I would say, probably one of the most fulfilling points of my career, because it was we were building the airplane as it was taking off. We had to build a high volume hiring system and when I say build it like the old system was paper applications and Excel spreadsheets to like an honest to goodness system that you can extract data from.
JD:That sounds so Amazonian absolutely. Extract data from that sounds so Amazonian, Absolutely.
Andrea:And yeah, just something that could you know, in that first year, take on 100,000 applications right and, to you know, synthesize it and bring it through to our hiring systems. There was still Excel spreadsheets in the process, but, you know, we were able to kind of start to automate and use actual systems in that application process. And it was also my first time being part of like a remote distributed team, so my team was all over the country and you know, I would say was one of the most collaborative productive teams that I've ever been a part of, you know, and so that was a really fun time. But we eventually, on a personal level, I had told my husband that once I graduated, I just needed a few years of experience under my belt in the US and then we would move back to Australia. He's Australian. Well, nine years later, um, three relocations, um, it was time to, uh, it was time to think about what's next for us on a personal level, and so we decided to move back to Australia. Um and uh, at the time I I actually didn't think I'd be able to stay with Amazon.
Andrea:The Amazon presence in Australia was very small, you know, I'd say less than 100 people across Australia, new Zealand. There was only two HR people, hr business partners, there was a few more in recruiting and for, at that time, for AWS and AWS was the only business present in Australia we didn't have the fulfillment or all the other sides of it yet, and so, anyways, I put my resignation in and thought, all right, well, it's been five years with Amazon, it was a good run, but time to switch gears, I guess. So, again, very lucky though, at the time I had a leader that was, you know, asked me well, do you want to stay? And I said, well, yeah, if there's the right opportunity. And so, you know, she was able to kind of get me in touch with the VP of HR for AWS and they were able to kind of make something work. So, yeah, that's what brought me to Australia and to the AWS side of the business.
Andrea:I was excited to be part of HR in a new country. I was excited to be in a new business line. It was also very scary. I haven't worked with, you know, sales teams before. I haven't worked, you know. You know I didn't really know all of the intricacies of Australian employment law. It wasn't an area I obviously had spent much time in before, and so it was kind of new challenges again which I think was invigorating in my career and, yeah, I would say, during my time with AWS.
Andrea:I'll kind of make this brief, you know, because again that was another nine years, but you know, I think I had the chance to support all of the different business lines, from the infrastructure side to sales, to our development team. I saw tremendous growth. Like I said, when I started there was less than 100 people and now there's thousands in the region and and then I think I think you know, I kind of seen a lot in that space and so it was time for me to kind of change gears again. So in 2020, kind of after the dust had settled a little bit with, you know, the pandemic I decided to go back into the global expansion for all of Amazon's business lines and did that for a few years, but then eventually kind of came to a point where I said I think my journey with Amazon is coming to an end. I'm ready to kind of go on to my next thing, which has been in the coaching space.
JD:So amazing journey, right, incredible journey. So amazing journey, right, incredible journey. And uh, I think, uh, some of those things we have in common wherever we're comfortable, we have to change things so we get back out of that again, right, that that need to to have change and step out of, out of our comfort zones and do something different. And it is scary, there's no question about it, and I've got to think, uh, moving countries, moving cultures, um, moving organizations and going into an organization that is very small, as you said at that time clearly not today must have been unsettling in some ways, right that I'm going to pick up sticks and move, but also move my career and move my environment and so forth.
JD:How did you prepare for that? What was your thought process through that?
Andrea:Yeah, I mean I think I did you know kind of the research I could do, right.
Andrea:So you know, brush up on the employment laws, learn a bit more about the AWS business, about the AWS business. But I think you know, for me too, I've always like, just loved learning and I think you know, to use an Amazon principle, learn and be curious. I think that you know was something that I leaned into and so I you know, I think, as I kind of went into it, just try to learn everything I could about the business and how it worked. And you know what was interesting, though very different business, but the leadership challenges are very similar, you know, no matter where you are You're, you know how I can support my leaders, how I can support my teams. You know those, you know things that they look to for HR, for support, are all very similar. And so, and I think what was nice as well with Amazon is the culture is so strong and I saw that culture very clearly, even though I was in a new business and I was in a new country, and saw the ability to you know, use that as my foundation.
JD:Yeah, that makes perfect sense and for the listeners that aren't familiar, so Amazon has 16 leadership principles. There were 14 when I first started. I think there was probably even less when you started because they've changed a bit over the years. I've actually got a podcast episode coming up in the future.
JD:I'm going to talk about those leadership principles and what they mean to me, but I'm going to echo Andre's comment in the sense that where I've moved from different groups in the organization as well, it is the common ground that we have and the common language that we have across the organization in how we operate, and it does help. It helps immensely. It's the reason I joined the company. In fact, I was tossing up a move back to microsoft or to go to amazon and the interview loop uh, the, the leadership principles came through so strongly. I'm like this is pretty cool. This is, this is a company that actually embraces these things, as opposed to having them on a plaque somewhere that they look at every six months and so um it you will hear this um from time to time coming from Amazonians these leadership principles.
JD:It's quite remarkable. So thanks for sharing that journey. I think that's really interesting in terms of your pathway and the learning along the way, and we'll tease out some more in terms of things that you've learned. But you've made this fundamental change now and I know you as this incredibly experienced, incredibly competent and pragmatic HR leader that I lent on more than once in my time when you were there, um, but this shift into into coaching. Now you know what. What was the, what was the mental model for you, what's the catalyst for you to say this is the place that I want to go next.
Andrea:And then you know how did you prepare for that, how did you get to where you are right now as you went through that transition yeah so, and, to be honest, when I left Amazon, I didn't know 100% that this is the path I would be, but coaching had always been in the back of my mind. And I think because, no matter where I, the part of my job I loved the most was, you know, working with leaders or working with my team and helping coach and develop them, and I'm a big believer on, you know, the coaching process of helping people find solutions within themselves, versus telling someone what to do. And so, you know, for me, it seemed like that it was the space that I would love to spend more time in. I, you know, thought I was pretty good at it too, you know, in the feedback I had received over the years, and so I thought that's where I could really add value for people. And so, you know, I think leaning into that strength was was important for me. And then also, I will say like a big part of this was kind of just, I think I had gotten to a point where I also felt like I needed to invest more time in my family, more time in myself, and I I needed something with the flexibility that would allow me to do this, and so that eventually kind of led me to. I needed to start my own business, and I think that was a really scary thing for me. Um, you know, in so much that, uh, the coaching I felt comfortable in. But, like you know, the other things sales marketing, you know, business development, proposal writing, you know, those were all muscles I've never flexed before and so well, it was scary.
Andrea:It was also again another time of learning and feeling like I was growing. And then I think you know you've mentioned this on some other podcasts that I've listened to like that feeling of imposter syndrome, like can I call myself a coach? You know, can I just flip that switch? And, you know, put that on my LinkedIn. What are people going to think, you know? And so I think there was those mental hurdles that, quite frankly, I leaned on coaching, for, which was great in terms of, you know, kind of getting through some of those limiting beliefs that I held about myself and what I could do. And for me, too, I did feel like it was important. I wanted to get some more of the theoretical foundations on coaching. I think I had the practice of it, but I think I also wanted to get build my expertise, and so I did do a coaching certification course. I joined the International Coaching Federation as a member and I think, you know, I continue my investing in my education in that space. So that was part of the journey as well too. But yeah, it was, you know.
Andrea:You know, I think there's still like parts of it where you're kind of going through. When you're going to a journey, you're getting into new spaces, you know you're having to always assess. You know what's this? Why does this fear seem to be coming up? Why is this risk? You know, why do I feel like this is risky? You know, I think I talk a lot about indecision to like, you know you can sit with an indecision or do you just take action, right. And so I think these are all things that I've taken as part of my journey, and I see that in my clients as well too, that you know they're ready for a move, but they're just kind of sitting with that indecision and they need some help working through that.
JD:So again for the listeners, I actually did a similar thing, andrea, back in 2014 when I came back to Australia. I took a few years out, got my master practitioner in coaching and NLP and have experienced some of what you've been describing in terms of that transition. And certainly I think the common story I hear from most people who break into coaching is that the coaching bits I'm good at, I've been doing it for years, it's part of my tool belt anyway. I just naturally can do that and I think that's true. I think that's true for many of us.
JD:But the business piece like how do I get out there, how do I build a, how do I attract clients, how do I manage the tax, how do I manage all the kind of stuff that goes with that uh tends to be the thing that I think all of us have to go through that journey of discovery on more than anything else. Um, I think the other aspect of making that transition, certainly in my experience, is questions from people, friends and family who will say hang on a, you've got a fantastic career, it's secure, you're respected and qualified and so forth, and you're going to walk away from that into this unknown territory and do this thing. That may not be successful for you. How do you prepare to answer those questions? What was your approach to making sure that you could respond when you got those questions? Or did you say, screw it, I don't care, I'm doing this anyway?
Andrea:Look, I wish I was more in the screw it, I don't care, camp. But I think I probably worry a little bit more than I need to about what people think, and of course you want your family to feel like there's financial security and that sort of thing. But look, I think, yeah, you're right. A lot of people are like, hey, you have a good job, it's with a great company, you know you're doing well, why leave that? You know, like, why step away from that? And so I think a couple of things came into play for me. And so I think a couple of things came into play for me. So one again.
Andrea:I'll call on another Amazonian mental mindset. Right, I saw it as a two-way door. I could go and do this and if it didn't work out, that's fine, I know I can go back to the corporate world and be an HR leader again. And so I think I had to kind of keep telling myself that it really wasn't that risky of a move, that there was a plan B, a, c, a, d, whatever, so that that was helpful to get through that mental model. And then I think you know, in terms of responding to others, I think you know, at the end of the day, they want to know that you're happy in what you're doing, and I think they want to know that you're it's going, you know, as expected, or you know you're working through the parts that are not, and so you know, I think I just try to give people some perspective of that.
Andrea:But yeah, I think, um, but yeah, I think the other mental model that helped me as well too was um. Jeff bezos talked about this when he was starting amazon and he calls it the regret minimization framework, and there's a great youtube video, um, that I recommend people search for regret minimization framework, je Jeff Bezos, where he talks about this in one of his early interviews. And essentially, you know it's looking at, you know, when, projecting yourself to when you're 80, and going, you know, will what? Will I regret more? Will I regret trying this and maybe it doesn't work out, or will I regret not trying it at all? And I think for me, I was like I just I knew I had to try it and you know I think I would have more regret if I didn't try it at all, and so I think that was another thing that kind of kept pushing me forward down this path yeah, I think that's powerful.
JD:I really do. And again, my, my coaching journey was definitely a two-way door. I will say my mindset was it was somewhat of a sabbatical and I felt like I went back to corporate world with a whole bunch of skills that I didn't have before. So it was kind of a gift from that perspective. But I I do love that notion in terms of what am I going to regret more and I mentioned it earlier in this podcast I'm a massive steven covey fan and and love his.
JD:You know, begin with the end in mind, which is literally looking at the end of your life and saying what do I want to be remembered for? What are the things I want to have left as my mark on the planet? And when I think about coaching, that's the mental model that I have with it is that do I want to be successful or would I like to make a lot of other people successful? Would I like that to be my legacy and I think that's what you do as a coach is you're very focused on making a lot of other people successful, hopefully with your own success along the way. I'm sure you've had some challenges as you've gone through this transition. I'm sure there's been some challenges for you.
Andrea:And I'm curious you know what are the most significant ones, and are there lessons or perspectives that you've gained through those transitional challenges? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges for me was in my career was becoming a parent, becoming a mom, and where that happened in that timeline I shared earlier, was right after I moved to Australia and, for the record, I had just been promoted. I just moved to this new country, new role, and within a few months I had to tell them oh, by the way, I'll be going on maternity leave and, by the way, I was the first person in Australia for Amazon to go on a maternity leave. So like we didn't have any of that figured out yet, so we had to figure that out too, and so I think, for me, though, the challenge was and I didn't think this would happen, but it did is a lot of what my perspective changed tremendously. I think my goals and what was important to me had changed, I think, how I used to be successful. I couldn't do it that way anymore. Ie just put in more time. You know, I had to figure out how to ruthlessly prioritize and focus on the meaningful work and, you know, find find ways to deliver that didn't involve me just putting more, more hours in, and I think that was one of the challenges and I think to this day it's still.
Andrea:You know, it's something that, because you know kids, they don't stay the same right, so you're constantly having to adjust. You know what works for you, what works for your work life, what you know, what you need out of your career, what you need, what you feel like you need to be putting into the family at that moment, and so I think that was one of the biggest things for me is really kind of getting that broader scope and responsibility in my life to say, okay, now how do I still do this and have the success I want in my career and keep evolving and, you know, staying on top of that. And so I think, like, new to your second part, like the lessons I learned, there was, I think sometimes I found it very overwhelming and I felt like I needed to have it all figured out. And so I think one of the mind frames I kept bringing myself back to is like, well, what do I need to worry about right here? You know, because there's times where, like you know, I was literally like, just, I was probably still on maternity leave.
Andrea:I'm like how am I going to bring these kids to school? You know well, you know what, we don't need to worry about that. Now. I need to figure out what I need for the next six months, one year, and and so kind of, just kind of focusing on that. You know immediately what was right, what was in front of me right and the mindfulness of going okay, what do I need in this moment? And so I think that was something that helped me in that space.
JD:It's amazing how much we can wrap our souls around the axles about things that are in the future, that haven't materialized yet and may never materialize. I'm always fascinated future that haven't materialized yet and may never materialize.
JD:I'm always fascinated when back in my coaching days, I used to ask my clients, under certain circumstances, you know, six months ago, what was the issue that was keeping you awake at night. And they're like I can't remember, isn't it? Isn't that funny? You can't remember? I think there's a lot of truth in that. No, that makes a lot of sense and thank goodness for kids in terms of giving us balance right.
JD:I think if anybody's listened to Julian Sakura's podcast episode we did on Python, one of the things that Julian talked about extensively was boundaries. He's all about boundaries and he blocks time in his calendar to have breakfast with the kids and to be there for the kids to go to bed, and he's like that's not negotiable and he's made it clear to his management. That's not negotiable and I think that's gosh. I wish I had that willpower. But I think you know to some degree, all of us. When we have kids for the first time, we suddenly have to start thinking differently about no, I can't do that 18 hour day because I've got to help with homework or I've got to you, you know be there to support them, and so I can.
JD:I could picture you going through that, that, that transition of priorities and so forth and they do change. I've got four and they're all adults. Now I got grandkids, so I'm going through that change differently, yeah yeah, yeah.
Andrea:And boundaries, I 100% like. I think it was the first time where, um, I really had to think about what those boundaries were going to be. You know what? What's I going to do to make sure I kept true to them? You know, yeah. So lots of calendar blocking and I think, you know, luckily for me at that time too, I took the train and so, like there were, I was either this train or one five minutes later and then there was nothing for you know, a half hour. So it was like, oh, train's coming, like I was a master at just shutting the laptop and then reopening it on the train, but it was a good forcing mechanism to get out of the office.
JD:Whatever it takes to have balance you know to have those moments, and, by gosh, that train trip can be such a savior, can't it? In terms of having time where you just literally have to have to shut off, it's good. Um, there's been a significant influence on you, and why?
Andrea:yeah, I I think you know this does sound a bit cheesy, but I do feel like you know, my time on Amazon did have a really significant influence on me, and so I think you know, like I said, there's already you know, a couple of mental models. I referenced Jeff Bezos. I had the chance to meet him in Sydney as well too, and you know I think I'd always appreciated, you know, whatever insights he brought, you know, to those meetings, or listening to all hands. You know those things and so, like I will say, like that regret minimization framework, I use that several times. I use that to make personal decisions, you know.
Andrea:So at one point, when I had my son, I decided to extend my maternity leave by a second year and we used that opportunity to travel around Australia in a caravan and I used regret minimization for that. You know, deciding to take this career break what I thought was a career break and transition into coaching again, use that mental model there. So I think that has really had a lot of influence at significant parts of my life. I think the other thing I would say, too, is you know the leaders that I've worked with that are really supportive of working on, you know, collaborative people's strategy and plan have been really influential, and so I think that has always been a moment in my career too, where I've really enjoyed working with those leaders and found a lot of fulfillment in my career. Yeah, I don't?
JD:I mean, I think most of us take some of those frameworks, whatever we learn from work, and hopefully we use them at home. I certainly think I do. I do think I mentally use the leadership principles and to some degree the two-way door decisions and so forth in my home life as well. It's like you know well, if we do that we can go backwards and so forth. So I think, maybe less consciously, we do it, but hopefully we do think about things from that perspective. I want to come back to the coaching topic, and some folks listening to this call have probably never had a coaching engagement. They probably had a mentoring or training engagement, perhaps not a coaching engagement, and I recognize that they're all different depending on the client, depending on the goals and depending on the coach style and so forth. But if you could, what would be a typical journey or a typical experience that somebody listening would go through or may go through if they had a coaching engagement with yourself?
Andrea:yeah, I think, you know, what's nice about one-on-one coaching is that it is very personalized and, you know because, customized to whatever the client's needs are, and so I think, really, that first step, though, is really finding out what their goals are, what they want to achieve, what outcomes they want to move towards, and I think then, once that's established, each session that we have we will figure out what we want to focus on for that session. The client will decide what they want to focus on for that session. The client will, you know, decide what they want to focus on for that session. We will work through our session to you know, it's exploring insights, it's exploring limiting beliefs, it's exploring, you know, what strengths they can leverage headwinds, tailwinds and you know, eventually, through the session, you know, some insights and learnings will generally come up for the client, and then figuring out what, if anything, they want to take, and then, you know, put into action towards that plan, to getting to where they want to be.
Andrea:Um, and, and so I think you know, for most of my clients, um, we work together for a minimum of three months. I think. That is usually like six fortnightly sessions. Some go beyond that, but I think that is usually the minimum. I start to see, you know, movement towards where they want to go. You know it's very solution focused, strength based aspects of positive psychology and other research based coaching methods. I always try to provide some curated resources for each client after each session. So, depending on where they are, what they're thinking about, so a couple of things that they can take away with a look at in between sessions and I think you know what coaching really is. It's a lot of, you know, hopefully thought-provoking questions, a lot of space to sit with your thoughts and you know come up with your answers and think about you know, and really deep, deep listening. So it's really focused on the client.
JD:Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think that is the distinction that I most love about coaching is that it's unlike mentoring, where I'm guiding and providing expertise and so forth. It's very much about using smart questions to help the person discover their own answers and discover their own strengths and so forth, and I think that's one of the things that that I think coaches bring to bear is that a client typically will come away from that more able to, more self-empowered uh, to have those breakthroughs independently in the future. You're kind of working to almost make yourself redundant as a coach. If you're successful to get into a point where they're independently more capable, hopefully they come back at some point. But but I think that's that's the difference that I see in terms of coaching you also said that that first session is about working out what they want to get out of it.
JD:I I question sometimes how often I had clients who thought they wanted one thing and then we discovered, you know, at the third session or whatever it was, that actually what was going on for them was something quite different. Have you found that yourself?
Andrea:a hundred percent, I would say, um, you know, it's good to know. Well, I think I think generally the larger outcomes kind of, are stable, right, right, they want, you know, to improve on this skill set, they want to maybe move towards this area of you know a change in their career, right, what that actually might look like throughout those sessions will change. And yeah, oftentimes you know, I think, what a client comes to you from, there's always, you know, maybe two or three things that haven't surfaced yet that you know might take more of a front seat as you go through the journey together. Um, and then to your point, you know, unlike mentoring or unlike training, or unlike um, you know, the idea of coaching is, you know, a the client is really the expert on their life and circumstance. Be, no one likes to be told what to do. In fact, like they say, like, cognitively, you start to really shut down when people tell you what to do. So you're better to help them, you know, develop a solution and to try to tell them, you know, what may or may not work.
Andrea:And and then I think you know to your point, like that journey discovery, I always say like, well, people that come to me, are highly successful. They're smart people. So it's not, you know, it's not about prioritization, because if they wanted to, they could come and you know Google 10 things about prioritization. There's something else usually that's holding that back right. You know so achievement, orientation, or you know some. You know fear of failure, or those are sometimes the underlying things that I think we need to that surface during a session than just I need to prioritize better.
JD:For example, and isn't it magical when the light goes on so often? You're there and you'll see them have the epiphany before your eyes, um, and it is something quite magical to watch, uh, when that happens. So, if any of our listeners are considering a coaching engagement they haven't been there before. Maybe they have, um, uh, but maybe they're thinking about finding a coach and having a different engagement what advice would you give them in terms of how to prepare for that? What would you be telling somebody to be thinking about in terms of of a coaching engagement?
Andrea:Yeah, I would say you know. I would say again, you know, try to think of what you want to move towards. You don't need to have everything concrete out in a smart goal. That's why I even don't even like to say goals, to be honest with you, because I think people coming from the corporate world start to shudder a little bit. So, you know, think about what outcomes you want to move towards.
Andrea:You know, I think it's also good to you know, do your research. You know most coaches will offer some sort of chemistry call so you can meet with them, get a sense of who they are. You know, are you able to develop a rapport? Do they land authentically for you? I would also say, you know more and more.
Andrea:I think that coaching is becoming a little bit of the Wild West. It's not necessarily a regulatory you know regulated industry, and so I would, you know, do some research on your coach, see what their background and experiences, what certifications they have. You know, are they a member of, you know, coaching federations that you know abide by certain standards of coaching? I think those are things that can, you know, give you a sense that you know they're just not kind of a fly by the seat of yourseat-of-your-pants person. I put up a website, and so I think those are good. I think probably the other thing I would recommend too is to talk to your peers and colleagues. Do they have referrals, do they have recommendations? I think that's always really helpful 100% on that.
JD:One totally agree that if you can get a referral from somebody who's had a positive coaching experience, that's that's probably the number one.
JD:One way to to find a great coach is to find somebody who's had a great experience, totally agree as well, as in terms of the associations. I you're an ICF member. I've been an ICF member as well, and I know that. I know that they've got specific standards in terms of the training that you've completed, the number of coaching engagements you've had and so forth, and so that's always a good thing to do. There are other associations out there as well. I just know the ICF.
JD:But I mean it's very good to look at coaches who are certified by those organizations and even look at the different certifications that they have is a good way to make sure that you're dealing with people that have got experience and the skills to help you out. I think it's important look, this has been great, um, in terms of, uh, sharing your journey. I really appreciate that. I've got some questions I'm going to go through with you now, which are the pretty standard questions I go through with all of my guests. Um, and the first one is is often a hard one, right? So if you could only read one book for the rest of your life, it was the one book that that is on your bookshelf that you're allowed to have access to. What book would that once and done?
Andrea:But this one book I've had for several years now and I keep coming back to it and to that point of like, what my most challenging hurdle was, you know, was kind of going through that parenthood, motherhood journey. And so the book I really love and I do recommend it on audio, and it's called buddhism for parents on the go and it's it's not just about the parenting aspect but it's also about your life, your career, lessons in there, and what's nice about it is kind of sharp and sharp sections you can come and go. And so oftentimes I find, you know, maybe when I'm a little bit rattled, you know I'll put my audiobook on, as I'm, you know, driving to the shops or picking the kids up or going to an activity, um, and you know, I find just listening to it for that five, ten minutes, I'm always picking up new insights, even though I've probably listened to the book several times now you just flick to a random chapter, or you do it in sequence, or yeah, well, I do it.
Andrea:So it's it's audio. It will just kind of go wherever it left off right and somehow it just kind of magically lands at a place where I'm like, oh, that's helpful, the universe speaks um. But yeah, I think, as you know, if you had the book as well too, you could just honestly flip through to a section and go start reading um and this is not a book specifically for buddhists.
JD:Right, there's good stuff.
Andrea:No, yeah yeah, no, it's um. I think you know I I wouldn't identify myself as buddhist, although I I do love a lot of the principles, um, I think you know just lots of great um messages, you know, regardless of your religion. And the author her name's sarah nepthali. She's um an australian author, and she had several other books, too, that I've read, but this one I love. I, like I said, I keep coming back to I'm definitely going to check that one out.
JD:I bet, um, is there a, a ritual or a hack or a routine or a habit or something that you've embraced that you feel like like had a significant influence on your effectiveness or your success?
Andrea:yeah, I think, um, I think the habit that I have found the most impactful is and it's a little bit boring, but like just having a really good sleep routine. So I think for me, you know it's, you know making sure that you know I minimize distractions. My phone is always on silent, by the way, that's also probably a hack I would recommend to people, if you can, I do have you know the notifications, but yeah, minimize whatever notifications you have. But yeah, I think you know I find like a good night's rest is probably the best thing for me. That would probably be my thing, my hack.
JD:So the thing that I observe and I'm not a good sleeper, I'm one of these people who's up and down all night the thing I've observed with in terms of sleep patterns is people who are generally very calm in their outward which you are very calm and controlled tend to be very good sleepers, and I can't work out whether they're calm because they're good sleepers or they're good sleepers because they're calm, but one of the two happens, because I do see this correlation between people who are scatty like me, who don't sleep, and people who are calm like you, who do sleep.
Andrea:Yeah, me who don't sleep, and people who are calm like you who do sleep. Yeah, yeah, well, and I would say I I wouldn't have called myself a good sleeper. Uh, for a portion I think it's something I had to get towards. But yeah, I find like reading before bed is like the.
JD:It's old-fashioned, but it works for me I can normally get through one paragraph before I lose it when I read it.
JD:I can normally get through one paragraph before I lose it when I read it. All right, moving on, I'm going to ask two questions here to kind of contradict each other, or at least are inverse of each other. The first one is, andre, when you need your superpower, when you need rocket fuel to get something big or challenging, or particularly, you know a big hurdle to overcome, what is your rocket fuel? Where do you get?
Andrea:that energy from? Well, I think. Well, look, I've also just started a fitness journey recently, so I do find getting my morning workout in is game changing for me. By the way, I hired a fitness coach, so I do recommend. I'm a big fan of coaching, like I. You know, I speak, I practice what I preach. But I think the other thing is and this is actually maybe this should be my hack the answer to my hack question.
Andrea:But I can be a bit scattered as well too. I find, you know, and I think in our busy lives it's easy, right, you know an email comes in, or you're going to your inbox to look for one thing, something else comes out. You know, whatever you go to a different tab on your computer, you see the last tab you're on, and that brings you down a rabbit hole. See the last tab you're on, and that brings you down a rabbit hole. So my kind of one thing I always try to do is to really stay focused, and so I use what I call the post-it note method. And I say a post-it note because you're limited on space, right? And so if I know I need to get you know.
Andrea:Whatever those one or two or three things are. I just write them on that post-it note, I put it right on my laptop, my keyboard monitor, and I just have to keep going back to that and going have I crossed it off yet? No, you know. Back to that. Back to that Because I think you know we do live in this space now where your attention is just pulled in so many different ways, and so whatever I need to do to keep refocusing on those outcomes I want to get to is what I I try to put on my post-it it's so funny.
JD:I do exactly that. I used to carry a pad of post-it notes whenever in the office, but I need a post-it note that's about 12 inches long. Right, because?
Andrea:you got it. You have to pick the top three, the top three for the day that. That's it, otherwise, yeah.
JD:It's so hard. Do you have a? Roll over post-it notes for what you didn't get done today. I love that. That's good. That makes sense.
Andrea:That's a challenge it is definitely a challenge.
JD:yes, let's flip this on its head. What is your kryptonite? What is it that will take the energy away from you quicker than anything?
Andrea:yeah, I think, um, what I've realized over time is, um and it's funny because I wouldn't call myself an optimist, or even you know someone that's like super high on that positivity continuum but I do realize that I do need to surround myself with people that have that type of energy. I think if I start to go into that, you know space, where you know there's a lot of whinging and complaining and I, that drains me, that drains me, you know. That's why I think you know too. Going back to like I'm really about being solution focused, taking ownership, thinking about what you can do, what you can control. That's where I find I get energy.
JD:Got. It Makes sense. Don't tell me what you can't do. Tell me what you can do and then do it.
Andrea:Yeah, makes sense.
JD:All right. My last question for you and you can't do tell me what you can do and then do it. Yeah, makes sense, All right. My last question for you, and you can make a choice here you can either give me a quote, that is, a quote that's had an impact on you, from somebody famous or special, or your worst dad joke.
Andrea:I'll do the quote option. I'll do the quote option. Yeah, so this one I actually read. I came from a book called Career to Calling, also by an Australian author, although I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it was someone that she had quoted in the book and the person was called Annie Snin. She's, I think, an American writer from. I think it was a quote from like the early 1900s and the quote is um, and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom. And um, I love it because I think again it talks to that. You know, I think again it talks to that you know, the risk of just staying in one spot versus, you know, the risk of moving forward.
JD:And I just love this idea of risk.
Andrea:Yeah, it perfectly fits your journey, right yeah?
JD:You need it to blossom.
Andrea:Yes, yes, and I think to move, you know to move forward, you have to accept there is some risk there but it's going to, you know, hurt more to stay in the same place and not take that risk.
JD:It's a great quote and I will find the book and I'll include it in the notes to make sure that you can access that as well. Well, look, this has been fabulous and fascinating and it's been wonderful to see you again, although in a different context, but I'm glad you're still out there and I'm glad you're doing good things out there for folks as well. Lots of great insights that you've shared with us and I certainly appreciate that. Listeners, if you want to read the notes, I'll send those out. If you want to discuss anything that Andrea's talked about, I'll give you the link to the JD's Journal page on Facebook and you can certainly have a chat there or give me feedback on topics you'd like us to cover in future podcasts as well. But, andrea, thank you again for your time. I sincerely appreciate it and I wish you the rest of the day is awesome and, listeners, I'll catch you in a couple of weeks. Thanks, everybody.
